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Thread: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

  1. Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Great Kumarill Bhatta and Adi Shankar exposed the corrupt chant of Buddhism during their time centuries ago and all corrupt chants were replaced with shuddh Hindu chants.
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  2. #12

    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    I have to disagree there. As long as a chant gives an individual peace of mind, it is not corrupt for him/her. More so when we dont know what these chants actually mean.
    Not just that, buddhist are not sanskritists and never cared much for the sanctity of the language. buddha chose prakrit. As buddhism spread everywhere - they chose the local languages.

    So corruption of the language is essentially an orthodox hindu position which is completely meaningless basis to criticize buddhist and would not stand modern day logic. But medieval polemics is another story. I find much of it laughable, boring and meaningless - but nonetheless incredibly convoluted to position one opinion as correct based on wrong assumptions or false assumptions not applicable to the doctrine being criticized.

    When you look at Buddhist chanting, please objectively verify its efficacy (the scientific method -> only correct logical method), instead of drawing bogus conclusions based on your brahminical prejudices. Sankara, Madhwa and Purva Mimamsakas reveled in it is no reason to bind ourselves to this absurdity.

    Tibetan lamas pronounce sanskrit mantras which is completely wrong from classical grammar pov. But it often works much better than the fat hindu purohita's insincere incantations. The reason is in the sound and meaning. Sanskrit is not the only way to express sound, even if it may be one of the most refined ways. Other means like drum beats or sitar can also work wonder - not to mention contemplative human voice following a tradition which well understood the science of sound but expressed it differently than brahminical bigots would like. If one understands the science one can devise methods of chants in English also which would be equally effective. But Hindus don't know any science, they don't care about any understanding beyond the meaningless medieval bogus bigotry which have reduced a ocean of knowledge into isolated dying ponds.

    The irony is the vedas and vedic chant is all wrong from classical sanskrit position - but those who have heard know its potency due to the svaras and the way of chanting. The hypocrites ofcourse won't explain why then vedas are not corrupt based on their logic. But would be glad to target others who they didn't want with the same piece of logic and invent some nonsense of apaurasheya dogma to keep vedas beyond challenge.
    Last edited by sm78; 10 December 2011 at 07:00 AM.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post
    dont see problems with chanting buddhist slokas generally speaking. But them buddhists dont reciprocate our good gesture, thats unfair. Namaste.
    I think this is generally true. Hindu philosophy, being the "mother" of Buddhism will have to live with the unfortunate exclusivity preached by some Buddhists. Many Buddhists who are critical of Hinduism are non-Indians. The general "backwardness" of India may be the cause of this. The non-Indian Buddhists tend to link India's poverty with Hinduism, somewhat unaware that Buddha himself was an Indian! Samkhya and Upanishads predated the Buddha and he might have culled out his philosophy based on these pre-existing philosophies.

    In any case, Buddha himself was an agnostic on a variety of issues and forbade his followers from speculating on metaphysical issues - telling them that it would cause them vexation and madness.

    Present-day Buddhists come in a variety of types - those who believe in reincarnation, those who dont, etc.

  4. #14

    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Namaste,

    Pardon my intrusion into this discussion, but it has prompted some thoughts: as I understand it, your friend has reached a level of realization concerning his life's path, and although perhaps not absolutely certain as to the details of the correct path to be taken, is aware that an opportunity to extricate himself from maladaptive coping mechanisms is at hand- and does not wish to throw away this moment of clarity. You, upon seeing this, have an instinct to reach out and help, without insisting that this help be conditional. However, you are also concerned about the possibility that you are the "wrong man for the job", so to speak.

    All of this seems to me very positive and commendable- in every aspect I see the effort to set ego aside. As far what should be done, I can only tell you what I would do in your position. It sounds as if your friend has encountered Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, possibly SGI. I say this because a member of my family had been talked into giving it a try back in the '80s, during a rough time in his life- so the mention of "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" and "Gohonzon" immediately rang a bell for me. Nichiren Buddhism is different from other Buddhist lineages in that "spreading the Dharma" is emphasized. If one cares to understand the flavor of thought behind their proselytizing activities, this page provides insight.

    I mention this not to criticize or encourage judgement of a different path from my own, but to encourage a policy of thorough investigation, when dealing with something as important as the nature of self and reality.

    The expression "Any port in a storm" is often used to explain actions taken during times of crisis that do not align with professed beliefs or values; and while it is not my business to instruct anyone in matters of philosophy or faith, I would be remiss not to suggest that one should strive to learn as much as possible, both internally and externally, no matter what path is chosen.

    Therefore, to make a long story short- yes, I would help- but not without being honest as to my limitations...

    "Others can help cook the meal, but no one can eat it for you"...

    JAI MATA DI

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    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    The irony is the vedas and vedic chant is all wrong from classical sanskrit position
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was Pāṇini who codified and laid down the grammar for what is now Classical Sanskrit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81...he_Ashtadhyayi I don't think there is anything that gives any clue to the pronunciations of Vedic Sanskrit, other than what Pāṇini described and attempted to preserve. And I believe he did that because the language was diverging. That divergence is why we have Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali, etc. They all derive from Sanskrit, as Italian, French, Portuguese, Spanish et. al. all derive from Latin.

    Wasn't Vedic Sanskrit an oral language for centuries if not milennia before it was written, and even then written using Pāṇini's grammar? Pāṇini is from the 400s BCE, which is milennia after the Vedas were composed. I don't know if there are any of those ancient manuscripts left, or what Pāṇini used to work from.

    So I guess my question is, how can we know what Vedic Sanskrit really sounded like? Especially considering that everyone speaks with their own accent and intonations based on their biomechanics. Many native English speakers cannot pronounce 'th', not to mention non-native English speakers. "That" comes out as "dat". I've heard many an Indian-American do that too. And none of this has anything to do with education. It's just the nature of human speech. I know some people won't like that, and this isn't an attempt to start another tormenta de mierda (the censor would catch s**tstorm ), but these are things I like to learn.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    I think this is generally true. Hindu philosophy, being the "mother" of Buddhism will have to live with the unfortunate exclusivity preached by some Buddhists.
    Many Buddhists who are critical of Hinduism are non-Indians. The general "backwardness" of India may be the cause of this.
    No, I disagree with you there... it's called "uppityness"... Do you see American tv commercials? OK, if not, there is an advertising campaign for Straight Talk telephone service which portrays people saving so much money they think they are wealthier than they are. In one tv ad... well, they say a picture is worth a thousand words...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiD6Ozpv-xg

    Maybe I've been guilty of this myself, being a convert, but I prefer to keep in mind R.V. 1.164.46 ekam sat viprah bahudha vadanti.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Namaste JaiMaaDurga.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaiMaaDurga View Post
    Namaste,

    Pardon my intrusion into this discussion, but it has prompted some thoughts: as I understand it, your friend has reached a level of realization concerning his life's path, and although perhaps not absolutely certain as to the details of the correct path to be taken, is aware that an opportunity to extricate himself from maladaptive coping mechanisms is at hand- and does not wish to throw away this moment of clarity. You, upon seeing this, have an instinct to reach out and help, without insisting that this help be conditional. However, you are also concerned about the possibility that you are the "wrong man for the job", so to speak.
    It's no intrusion, I asked because I want to know if I'm the right man for the job. And you know exactly where I am coming from.

    Everything you discern about the situation is true. Actually what I want, and yes it's an ulterior motive that will make life easier for me for reasons I need not go into, is that he find "his way" to inner peace and self-control.

    All of this seems to me very positive and commendable- in every aspect I see the effort to set ego aside. As far what should be done, I can only tell you what I would do in your position. It sounds as if your friend has encountered Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, possibly SGI. I say this because a member of my family had been talked into giving it a try back in the '80s, during a rough time in his life- so the mention of "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" and "Gohonzon" immediately rang a bell for me. Nichiren Buddhism is different from other Buddhist lineages in that "spreading the Dharma" is emphasized. If one cares to understand the flavor of thought behind their proselytizing activities, this page provides insight.
    Yes, it is indeed SGI, Nichiren Shoshu. I started explaining some of the tenets: what the Odaimoku means; what SGI and Nichiren Shoshu are; the Gohonzon; even going so far as to say he was approached because SGI is to Buddhism what Hare Krishnas are to Hindus, as it were. That is, both groups proselytize and actively seek converts; they have a slightly different view and philosophy of their respective "mother faiths", though that doesn't make them "bad" or "false", just different.

    That may have been an over-simplification for him, but at this point he can relate to it; he knows what Hare Krishnas are, and knows what I am and am not as a Hindu.

    I mention this not to criticize or encourage judgement of a different path from my own, but to encourage a policy of thorough investigation, when dealing with something as important as the nature of self and reality.
    The expression "Any port in a storm" is often used to explain actions taken during times of crisis that do not align with professed beliefs or values; and while it is not my business to instruct anyone in matters of philosophy or faith, I would be remiss not to suggest that one should strive to learn as much as possible, both internally and externally, no matter what path is chosen.

    Therefore, to make a long story short- yes, I would help- but not without being honest as to my limitations...

    "Others can help cook the meal, but no one can eat it for you"...

    JAI MATA DI
    Someone who is non-SGI Nichiren Shoshu said almost exactly the same thing. I tend to seek out several opinions and sources, so I admit this is not the only time or place I've asked this question. That person said that there have been prospective believers who, after an hour's conversation and consultation with a minister were told this path is not for them.

    I don't think he is ready for consultation with a minister; he is about to start intensive out-patient emotional and substance "misuse" ("abuse" is too strong a word and concept in his case) counseling.

    So in the end, I don't know how ready he is to follow up on this endeavor, but I want to be ready if he is ready.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Namaste,


    I feel that there is nothing wrong with helping him learn the chants of Nichiren Buddhism. It is the chanting of certain sections of the Lotus Sutra. The Lotus Sutra is an amazing teaching of the Buddha. It contains so many gems. Why would this be against the Dharma? The only errors I would see, would not be in teaching this to your friend, but of your friend learning about how dogmatic Nichiren Daishonin was. Think of Nichiren as being as dogmatic as Param is on this forum. It is not good, because it only strengthens the ego. I find that this is a common trend amongst many Nichiren Buddhist. Now this does not mean that all of the Nichiren Buddhist are like this. There are some amongst the Nichiren Shu sect that seem to be a bit softer in their approach. Other sects of Nichiren Buddhism are very dogmatic in their approach that only the Nichiren path will lead to salvation. Nichiren Daishonin himself felt that his path was the only path and claimed that other paths would lead one to hell. He even selected certain passages of the Lotus Sutra that were to be accepted and only advised chanting those. He also did not want others to learn other Sutras, because he felt the Lotus Sutra was the only Sutra that can save on in this age.

    If you do some research into the different sects and even talk to many Nichiren Buddhist, you are bound to see that there are many sects and people who will speak ill of not only non-nichiren sects, but also other Buddhist sects such as Zen, Dzogche, and Pure Land Buddhism.

    To me this would be the only ill affect of your friend learning about this path. On the other hand this path might be right for your friend and perhaps he or she will look past the dogmatism.

    Om Namah Shivaya

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    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Namaste Spiritualseeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritualseeker View Post
    Namaste,


    I feel that there is nothing wrong with helping him learn the chants of Nichiren Buddhism. It is the chanting of certain sections of the Lotus Sutra. The Lotus Sutra is an amazing teaching of the Buddha. It contains so many gems. Why would this be against the Dharma? The only errors I would see, would not be in teaching this to your friend, but of your friend learning about how dogmatic Nichiren Daishonin was.
    On the other hand this path might be right for your friend and perhaps he or she will look past the dogmatism.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Thanks for the perspective.

    At this point he's not interested in dogma or a particular school, but in finding inner peace in learning the teachings in the Lotus Sutra. I often quote passages of the Bhagavad Gita to him also, if I think it's relevant.

    For his purposes and for what it's worth, he could explore Mahāyāna itself, of which I think Nichiren is a sub-school of, if he decides to delve deeper. Though I doubt he'll make a full conversion.

    I've obtained the shindoku chants (chapters 2 & 16). I am going to get an English translation of the Lotus Sutra for him, so he can read it in its entirety, if he so desires. There's little worse than reciting something in a language you don't understand, or following dogma blindly.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  10. #20

    Re: Hindu helping someone learn Buddhism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TouchedbytheLord View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was Pāṇini who codified and laid down the grammar for what is now Classical Sanskrit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81...he_Ashtadhyayi I don't think there is anything that gives any clue to the pronunciations of Vedic Sanskrit, other than what Pāṇini described and attempted to preserve. And I believe he did that because the language was diverging. That divergence is why we have Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali, etc. They all derive from Sanskrit, as Italian, French, Portuguese, Spanish et. al. all derive from Latin.

    Wasn't Vedic Sanskrit an oral language for centuries if not milennia before it was written, and even then written using Pāṇini's grammar? Pāṇini is from the 400s BCE, which is milennia after the Vedas were composed. I don't know if there are any of those ancient manuscripts left, or what Pāṇini used to work from.

    So I guess my question is, how can we know what Vedic Sanskrit really sounded like? Especially considering that everyone speaks with their own accent and intonations based on their biomechanics. Many native English speakers cannot pronounce 'th', not to mention non-native English speakers. "That" comes out as "dat". I've heard many an Indian-American do that too. And none of this has anything to do with education. It's just the nature of human speech. I know some people won't like that, and this isn't an attempt to start another tormenta de mierda (the censor would catch s**tstorm ), but these are things I like to learn.
    We know good bit about vedic sanskrit and even pre-vedic proto sanskrit through work done by many scholars. It is regarded as a reconstructed language based on the remnants of the vedic chanting still preserved today which gives some clues, especially those of the highly isolated communities like namboodri brahmins of kerala. vedic sanskrit as we know now is not same as panini's characterization and what followed since. But all this is besides the point.

    But, I find the navya-naya criticism funny, since one of its argument against buddhism was that buddhist texts had grammartical errors and hence could not be correct. Using the logic that grammartical errors is enough to discard the content of a book is terrible and can only work with those who believe such retarded things like religious books penned by Gods and have to flawless. It carries no weight in modern day world and sceintific thinking. The argument can work against Islam or Xianity who believe in such concepts but not buddhist - but even then it would be just argument for arguments sake with nothing to do with content or undertanding or knowledge. In colloquial term it is the quintessential "ponga pundit".
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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