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Thread: Meaning of Christianity as understood by a universalist

  1. #31

    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    Namaste Adam,

    Although you seem to think otherwise, Hindus are not naive enough to think that all people who call themselves Christians believe in hate, exclusivism, that all non-believers are going to hell, etc.

    I respect your views and beliefs, yet at some point (not necessarily in this lifetime) you will realize that what you believe in is not Christianity. It's great that Jesus supposedly preached about peace and love and compassion and all that good stuff, but in the Gospels he also talked about exclusivism and proselytizing and converting people, things that most Hindus are fundamentally against. If you are against those two things then you are not a Christian (follower of Christ)...it's really that simple.

    But as I said, I respect your views. It's just that you feel some need to attach yourself to Jesus when you don't even seem to agree with everything he said and the teachings that you do agree with are already found in other religions.

    Jai Sri Ram
    Sanatana Dharma ki Jai!
    Jai Hanuman

  2. #32
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    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    namaste,
    One thing I never get is:
    - how can a 'God' 'suffer' for someone's sins? Are you really a God if you can 'suffer'? and if you 'really' didn't suffer then what's the point of getting nailed and put on the drama?

    I think the nailed man on the cross actually proves the point that whoever that man was, was not God indeed. Because if he was 'suffering' by the torture, he wasn't a God because I don't know of any God that can 'suffer' on the other hand if he wasn't really getting hurt then he was just making a show of it. What a nonsense.

    satay

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    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    namaste,
    I also think that 'iLoveGod' is not a Christian for any sense of the word. Seems to be some sort of universalist. Nothing wrong with that...
    satay

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    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    Namaste satay.

    The whole thing reeks of illogic and sadism.

    1. God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, creates man. Creation is to show God's power and glory.

    2. God tests man, knowing full well (there's that omniscience at work) that man will fail the test. It's a set up.

    3. Then God promises to send a Redeemer, a Savior, to atone for the sin God knew man would commit.

    4. God incarnates as his own son in human form and takes on the sins of humanity, which I might add, is still born under the shadow of that "Original Sin".

    5. This human incarnation of God dies a horrible and gruesome death to atone for that sin he knew would be committed. But if mankind is still born with the "stain of original sin" as the RCC calls it, what did the redeemer's death accomplish?

    Where is the logic? Where's the consistency? The more I thought about it over the years (and other things), the less I could accept a God like that. However, it's not God who is at fault, it is the humans who conjured up this drivel and twaddle of a story.


    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste,
    One thing I never get is:
    - how can a 'God' 'suffer' for someone's sins? Are you really a God if you can 'suffer'? and if you 'really' didn't suffer then what's the point of getting nailed and put on the drama?

    I think the nailed man on the cross actually proves the point that whoever that man was, was not God indeed. Because if he was 'suffering' by the torture, he wasn't a God because I don't know of any God that can 'suffer' on the other hand if he wasn't really getting hurt then he was just making a show of it. What a nonsense.

    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  5. #35

    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    It reminds me of when Yahweh was in one of his moods in 2 Sam 21:1-10 and the people were in famine for 3 years so they had to kill 7 people to make Yahweh happy and to stop the famine.

    The logic is stupid and it's very pagan-ish when you think about it where people sacrificed others to stop famine and other strange stuff. 

    For me like I wrote earlyer, Jesus was murdered and there was no "sin" offering. That was added later on in gosple of john and pauls writings.   


    Mind you, anyone ever read Zechariah Chapter 11? It talks about Yahweh killing a great shepherd and that he will replaced the shepherd for another one which will not care for anyone.
    It's a fun read and makes you wonder.  

     http://the-red-thread.net/bands-beauty.html

     
    Religion = self idenity = entrapment,
    Only in silence will you find God.

  6. #36

    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    I don't know.
    All I know is that my goal is to be kind. I try to live by that everyday.
    I don't wish any harm or discomfort upon anyone, including the Hindus on HDF or any other Hindu in the world.
    Hindus have a beautiful way of life, and I wouldn't ever want to ruin that for them or do any kind of evil against them.

    I like all world religions and meeting friends who practice them.

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    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramakrishna View Post
    Namaste Adam,

    Although you seem to think otherwise, Hindus are not naive enough to think that all people who call themselves Christians believe in hate, exclusivism, that all non-believers are going to hell, etc.

    I respect your views and beliefs, yet at some point (not necessarily in this lifetime) you will realize that what you believe in is not Christianity. It's great that Jesus supposedly preached about peace and love and compassion and all that good stuff, but in the Gospels he also talked about exclusivism and proselytizing and converting people, things that most Hindus are fundamentally against. If you are against those two things then you are not a Christian (follower of Christ)...it's really that simple.

    But as I said, I respect your views. It's just that you feel some need to attach yourself to Jesus when you don't even seem to agree with everything he said and the teachings that you do agree with are already found in other religions.

    Jai Sri Ram
    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste,
    I also think that 'iLoveGod' is not a Christian for any sense of the word. Seems to be some sort of universalist. Nothing wrong with that...
    Yes, I very much share the views expressed here. None of us seem to take any offense with the beliefs expressed by ILoveGod or UniversalLove. It's just that what they're saying doesn't match up with what we read in the Bible or hear from the lips of Christian preachers. I don't personally subscribe to the idea of applying whatever labels or titles people wish to themselves. If someone wants to call himself Hindu but is sacrificing cows to Lord Vishnu...well, that person simply isn't Hindu. You can't apply a label to yourself while fundamentally betraying the meaning of that label, or else the English words we're using would be arbitrary (and why bother with language at all in that case?). Likewise, the Bible says that non-Christians go to hell and that it is the church's duty to convert all non-believers. This isn't just some temporary lapse, like the Christian who doesn't fully live up to his beliefs. To say that there is no hell is to reject the idea that man needs someone to die for his sins. If you don't submit to this view, I'd be hard pressed to call you a Christian. Not that I think this is a bad thing. As I've said before, being a good Christian necessitates being a bad person (and yes, since I believe in God I am capable of making objective moral judgments).

    Quote Originally Posted by TouchedbytheLord View Post
    Namaste satay.

    The whole thing reeks of illogic and sadism.

    1. God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, creates man. Creation is to show God's power and glory.

    2. God tests man, knowing full well (there's that omniscience at work) that man will fail the test. It's a set up.

    3. Then God promises to send a Redeemer, a Savior, to atone for the sin God knew man would commit.

    4. God incarnates as his own son in human form and takes on the sins of humanity, which I might add, is still born under the shadow of that "Original Sin".

    5. This human incarnation of God dies a horrible and gruesome death to atone for that sin he knew would be committed. But if mankind is still born with the "stain of original sin" as the RCC calls it, what did the redeemer's death accomplish?

    Where is the logic? Where's the consistency? The more I thought about it over the years (and other things), the less I could accept a God like that. However, it's not God who is at fault, it is the humans who conjured up this drivel and twaddle of a story.
    Indeed. The problem I see here is that the judgment of man is based on man's knowledge and intellectual assent. We must know about the Christian gospel and believe in its doctrines in order to escape eternal hellfire. I much prefer the model presented in the Sri Sathyanarayana Katha (which those of us who grew up Hindu are likely familiar with). In it, we are presented with several cases of humans who arrogantly reject God and are punished for it. But their sin does not result in eternal death. Indeed their lives are preserved until such point as they repent of their deeds and approach God from a humble posture, at which point their fortunes are restored to them. In Hinduism, it is possible for man to pay for sin without any eternal punishment. That's the fundamental problem with the Christian model of sin: man is offered the opportunity to pay for his sin, but the only payment God will accept is an eternity of hellfire. This becomes an excuse for man to simply abdicate all responsibility for his sin.

    Thank God that Hinduism properly portrays God as a friend rather than a strict judge. I think we are the ones who truly understand God as a Father (and Mother, for that matter), the Lord's Prayer notwithstanding.

  8. #38
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    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by TouchedbytheLord View Post
    Namaste satay.

    The whole thing reeks of illogic and sadism.

    1. God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, creates man. Creation is to show God's power and glory.

    2. God tests man, knowing full well (there's that omniscience at work) that man will fail the test. It's a set up.

    3. Then God promises to send a Redeemer, a Savior, to atone for the sin God knew man would commit.

    4. God incarnates as his own son in human form and takes on the sins of humanity, which I might add, is still born under the shadow of that "Original Sin".

    5. This human incarnation of God dies a horrible and gruesome death to atone for that sin he knew would be committed. But if mankind is still born with the "stain of original sin" as the RCC calls it, what did the redeemer's death accomplish?

    Where is the logic? Where's the consistency? The more I thought about it over the years (and other things), the less I could accept a God like that. However, it's not God who is at fault, it is the humans who conjured up this drivel and twaddle of a story.
    Namaste satay.

    I can understand your conclusion that there appears little logic and a great deal of inconsistency in the teachings of Christianity.

    I would like to point out that what many take as 'Christianity' is in fact, Churchianity - an rather lop sided view of the teachings of Jesus.

    So you are quote right in pointing out the inherent failings of human endeavour.

    But if one goes back to the teachings of Jesus and blot out the inherent cloud of spin and rhetoric overhanging those teachings one might gain a fruitful understanding of what Jesus was on about.

    1. Jesus makes no mention of a 'God of Creation'. Rather, Jesus speaks of a 'Father of love'.

    2. Jesus makes no mention that the Father 'test's humanity. Rather, the Father is only too eager to cast off his robes in order to bestow love and mercy on all.

    3. Jesus is not a sacrifice. The Father is not into child abuse. The theology of a 'blood' sacrifice was a later adoption.

    4. The is not mention of 'original' sin in the Bible. There is no 'Fall". Humanity is made in the image of God.

    5. Jesus died a criminal's death because he was essential a rebel - he challenged the stagnant social order that imposed unrealistic burdens on those who could lest afford it while the elites live in luxury.

    Jesus was not talking about what one had to believe. Jesus was teaching humanity how to behave towards each other. He lived and died by that example.

    I have recently left my church. I have done so precisely because of the issues you raise. The unfortunate thing is that most Christians do not understand the difference between what the church indoctrinates and what Jesus taught.

    I have been draw to teachings of Sri Ramakrishna and the Ramakrishna Order. From what I have learnt I am encouraged by the balance contained in these teachings.

    I leave in January for a trip to the two epicentres of the worlds religions - Jerusalem and Varanasi where I will be staying in Christian retreat centers and Hindu ashrams.

    Perhaps I will learn something useful and beneficial.

    In the meantime, please allow some latitude to Christians. Most have a kind and loving heart and it is at that level I think we should engage with one another.
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2603&dateline=1299563544

    Not all those who wander are lost

  9. #39

    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    I think some people misunderstood Jesus way of teaching and the way he talks. Like if you read the new testement for the first time without any spiritual background, your end up hating the guy cause your mind thinks he's an enemy. But once you learn more about spirituality and other ancient text your see that they all lineup pretty well with the same message. We are following our sences and forgetting god.

    For sample:
    Matthew 6:24
    "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

    (this can mean anything but I like to see it as our sences vs god, if you serve your sences then you have forgotten about god cause your to busy injoying pleasure.)

    "You cannot serve both God and money."

    (this one is god vsMaterial goods)

    Jesus passed his test when he met Satan who offered him all sorts ofMaterial things and Jesus rejected them all cause he knew it was all an illusion and that reaching the supreme goal is more importent thenMaterial pleasure.

    "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34

    This was in the present moment and the sword he was talking about was a spiritual truth. Even tho he was a peaceful monk he was bringing war to those who hated his teachings and wanted him killed.

    "'a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law Matt 10:35

    Many can related to this. Ever had a diffrnt belief then your own family who belives in something else? it's just like that and Jesus was saying that his teachings will make people turn against each other and fights will start cause of the belief's. We see this everyday when a someone wants to change his beliefs and there loved ones get upset and start arguing etc.


    "Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fieldsalong with persecutionsand in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first." Mark 10:29-31

    I can now understand this verse since Im into spirituality and Jesus makes a good point here.

    There's a very good anlogy from the matrix that explains this:

    "Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path."

    The Gita is a guide and we can ither know it'sgospel or walk it. Same with the 4 gosples (mat,mark,luke)
    So many christains don't walk the path, They just know the path.

    It's all about getting away from thematerial world and live like a monk. Sadly my mum can't see this cause she's brainwashed by her cult. She calls everyone outside of her cult as "worldy" in reailty it is her that is "worldly" cause she has falling into a trap ofself idenity and following other peoples interpretation of the bible.

    "Then he said to them all: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves ...... and follow me." Luke 9:23

    To deny yourself is to stop identifying yourself as a christain,Jew,muslim,
    hindu and so on. God isn't a religion and nither is Jesus. Budda isn't a religion nor Krishna and nither is Lao Tzu. They all teach the same truth which guides us all to the supreme goal.

    If christains follow Jesus' real laws I'll be happy to give them hugs and maby cookies.

    Rules and sins:

    1: Self defence (non-violence)
    Matt: 5:38,39
    Matt: 5:43,44
    (never fight back)

    2: Material wealth (uncovetousness)
    Matt: 6:19. Matt: 19:16 Matt: 6:24
    Matt: 19:24. Luke: 14:33.
    (no earthly material of any kind)

    3: Sexual attraction
    Matt: 5:28
    (no looking at hot girls/guys)

    4: Religious activity rewarded by people
    Matt: 6:16. Matt: 6:1. Matt: 6:5.
    (everything must be done in secret) *god is personal*

    5: Failure to be completely humble
    Matt: 5:40
    (give everything you have and acept everything that happens to you)

    6: do not judge
    Matt 7:1-2

    8: Do not go door to door
    (Ek oikia eis oikia)
    Luke 10:7 (they only preached in public places such as towns/Market etc)
    The times when they did go from house to house was to stay for the night
    And also heal others Matt10:5-12

    9: Deny thy self :
    Matt 16:24

    10:No discrimination:
    Matthew 5:44-48
    Religion = self idenity = entrapment,
    Only in silence will you find God.

  10. #40
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    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlight View Post
    I think some people misunderstood Jesus way of teaching and the way he talks. Like if you read the new testement for the first time without any spiritual background, your end up hating the guy cause your mind thinks he's an enemy. But once you learn more about spirituality and other ancient text your see that they all lineup pretty well with the same message. We are following our sences and forgetting god.

    No...I am very sorry, but no they absolutely do not.

    Let me tell you, that when the fool comes to correct, the misconception must be catastrophic.

    This reminds me of a current situation in my family. We have a narcisist who is also paranoid schizophrenic. Often, as mostly normal functioning folks, our family has projected good motives upon this one so violent.

    Projecting our own goodness upon one who is truly very ill. When she would hit us we blamed ourself and thought we should behave better and this would not bring her to this state of violence. Because our motivation was peaceful, we project this also upon her. But this is unrealistic...you can not project your own personality and motivation upon another.

    That is exactly what is going on here...we have picked and chosen what portions of the jesus fairytale will be focused on and the rest...the hundreds of other portions are thrown out.

    The reason Jesus is often so contradictory within the bible...because he is a composite character, written by several good intentioned, or perhaps not so good intentioned people.

    Jesus didn't really exist. He was a composite several men, all jumbled together in the jewish myth we now call jesus.

    There is more evidence, at this moment...that Big Foot exists than there is that jesus did.

    If we took this to a court of law, they would throw the case out claiming there was not enough evidence. Almost everything they say jesus said is heresay...words repeated many years later.

    The bible is a jumble of stories, like Stephen King's NightShift.

    It was never meant to be merged together nor is most of it ancient, as the men who came along and chose the specific books colored everything with their own personalities...and motives.

    Now for this conversation I am going to have to drink the koolaid a bit here and pretend jesus was a real person...

    Nothing...not a shred of jesus is relevant to this follower of Dharma. It's as if you had a choice between pure honey or drinking honey flavored water.

    We can go all day over the bible, you can give me the quotes from people "ghost writing" for jesus who were kind and peaceful...and I could give you a hundred quotes from people like Mathew who say jesus said...

    Mathew 10: 34-37

    34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.
    37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    Does this teach what those other "ancient text" teach?

    How many ancient texts have you read? and for that matter...which? I have read numerous ones and never found them remotely similar to the bible...well except the quran.

    This quote above says.... in a nutshell...everything Sanatana Dharma is not.


    Was Jesus aware of the Truth of SD in those statements?

    no.

    Because for many in SD a daughter, son...mother....father...your neighbor are a portion of God, in the ultimate sense.

    Does jesus even sound peaceful in that quote?

    You want to believe jesus was real, "peaceful" or even "enlightened"
    fine...that's your perogative.

    But, do not claim that because one has not "learned about spirituality enough" yet...they can not see his "true message".

    Folks, until you can stop projecting your own motives upon this fictional man....you will never be free enough to move past it.

    Always you will live in that fear of:

    (good ol' Mathew again)

    10:28

    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    8-12

    12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    Luke 12:5

    5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

    John 3:16-18

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


    If you believe jesus, how can you possibly accept your Divine Birthright?

    The guilt, shame, hate, and fear are so tremendous as a xtian...you would live in fear your entire life of eternal damnation.

    A religion which believes the soul can die.

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