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Thread: Meaning of Christianity as understood by a universalist

  1. #61
    Join Date
    June 2011
    NJ, USA
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    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity


    Quote Originally Posted by pineblossom View Post
    The point I was making is that the evidence to which I refer comes not from what is written in the biblical texts - but from the Roman historical record.
    Actually there is nothing in Roman or Greek historical records about Jesus, and the Romans and Greeks wrote down everything... including recipes and grammars for correct pronunciations, not unlike Panini did with his Sanskrit grammar.

    Flavius Josephus is not a credible source for information about Jesus. Josephus lived c. 37-100 CE. He was born after the time of Jesus, so he had no firsthand knowledge of Jesus. It was hearsay from dubious sources. Josephus's claim to fame, and is probably accurate, is his documentation of the final struggles between the Romans and Jews, Masada, and the destruction of the temple, all of which occurred during his lifetime. That is all well documented by the Romans.

    The Romans also have information about Pontius Pilate's life and career, but it makes no mention of a Jesus of Nazareth. Now, is it possible that despite their penchant for documentation, the Romans didn't think Jesus was that important? Possible, but I think unlikely given the "press" he's been given by other non-credible sources.

    The gospels were written in the first century CE at the earliest, and probably not even by anyone called Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. At the time it was fashionable to write using someone else's name to lend credibility. By that time, the names of the apostles were gaining ground, but there's no credible history of them either.

    The point is that belief in Jesus is just that, belief. If one needs proof for the existence of someone one believes in, then how strong is that belief and faith?
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  2. #62

    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity


    I do not find myself particularly keen on keeping this particular thread a going concern, since the OP finds the discussion to be drifting far afield of their original intent; but- if someone is to make statements about something being a "historical fact" without being more specific than "Roman historical records", it begs the question.

    Please do not mistake me for having any vested interest in whether or not Jesus was an actual living, breathing person; it no more preoccupies me than Jesus' possible weight, height, shoe size, or level of hand-eye coordination. It is amazing how quickly desire or expectation replaces reality for those that "loom larger than life"... ask Americans what they think Abraham Lincoln sounded like, and most will give him a deep rich baritone, like many films etc.- yet, descriptions of Lincoln's voice, given by those who had actually heard him speak, invariably have it much more of a higher-pitched, nasal twang.

    Speaking of historicity, I cannot help but think of how little the foundations of Abrahamic belief and practice have been shaken by:

    1) The utter lack of Egyptian records or any historical basis for the veracity of the Hebrew tales of Egyptian enslavement, Moses, Exodus, etc. The University of Tel Aviv after decades of research found instead evidence that the core of the stories trace to the Hyksos invaders, who after being driven from Egypt settled and intermarried among the Hebrew tribes living in Canaan at the time.

    2) The discovery and translation of Sumerian tablets containing the ancestor of the Biblical flood/destruction of man story; the Sumerians, being polytheistic, have the sky/wind-god Enlil as the advocate for mankind's destruction, and the wisdom-god Enki as the agent of mankind's preservation. All the gods had sworn not to warn any mortals as to the impending destruction, but Enki gets around this with a technicality; at his temple there is a reed screen separating Enki from his head priest. Enki addresses the reed screen, warning of the flood and passing on the instructions concerning the ark, what to take, etc. It becomes blindingly obvious that the Hebrew flood story was descended from this, if one reads the translation.

    These two facts have not caused the implosion of any of the three Abrahamic faiths. Individuals are than capable of carrying around mutually contradictory ideas (see the fellow quoted at the bottom of the post), and certainly no religion with many generations of thousands of followers will collectively collapse crying, "A faulty premise has been found- alas! I die!"

    Bearing all of this in mind, I ask- do we not have more pressing concerns?
    I admit to being fond of a quote from a fellow(who was admittedly very self-contradictory, in the sense of being an owner of slaves...who concerned himself greatly with liberty) concerning what others believe:

    But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

    || जय माता की ||

  3. #63
    Join Date
    March 2006
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    Re: The True Meaning of Christianity

    Admin Note

    namaste everyone,

    Quote Originally Posted by UniversalLove View Post
    I wholeheartedly respect everyone's opinions.
    I just wanted to share my own feelings and perspectives.
    Let's take a break here and refocus.

    Jesus is irrelevant to hindus, Period.

    Lord Krishna says,

    Yanti deva-vrata devan, pitran yanti pitr-vratha
    bhutani yanti bhutejya yanti mad-yajino 'pi mam

    Those who worship the devas will take bith among the devas; those who worship the ancestors or pitr go to the ancestors;
    those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings;
    and those who worship Me will live with me.

    Jesus and the holee spirit are irrelvant to hindus but if someone wants to worship these ghosts and spirits they will go to their designated place as told by lord krishna i.e. to bhut-loka below the material world.

    Think about it. As hindus we are striving to go towards spiritual world.

    I am closing this discussion as preaching of other religions is against the rules of HDF.

    Thank you for your understanding.

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