Himalayan Academy - things I don't agree with

[Divine Kala]

Namaste!

Probably posting this in the wrong place again but I've been reading 'How to become a Hindu' recently and came up against a bit of a snag - at least for me.

I am not a member of the Saiva Siddhanta Church (not with my views!) but I found the fact that Subramuniyaswami lists the following as the norm a little (read: a lot) annoying.

The Role of Women

In traditional Hindu culture, women are held in the highest regard -- far more respected, in truth, than in the West. But this does not imply the kind of equality or participation in public interactions that are common in the West. The qualities traditionally most admired in an Asian woman are modesty of manner, shyness and self-effacement. Self-assertive or bold tendencies are regarded with circumspection. Feminine refinements are expressed and protected in many customs, including the following:

1. WOMANLY RESERVE: In mixed company, a Hindu woman will keep modestly in the background and not participate freely in conversation. This, of course, does not apply to situations among family and close friends. When male guests are in the home, women of the household will appear when it is proper for them to do so. Visitors do not expect or ask to meet them. Women are not expected to speak out or make themselves a part of the conversation.

This really caught me. The fact that he says 'women are not expected to speak' translates, basically, for me as 'women are expected to stay silent'. As a fairly head strong woman I do not like the implications.

Visitors don't even expect to meet the lady of the house? That, to me, shows how lowly women are thought of!

2. WALKING BEHIND ONE'S HUSBAND: The wife walks a step or two behind her husband, or if walking by his side, a step or two back, always giving him the lead. In the West, the reverse of this is often true.

I am not going to give my husband the authority in a relationship. I look at it like this - my husband (if I ever marry) is Shiva and I am Shakti, we are both equally important and rely on one another. One is not given superiority over the other.

3. SERVING AT MEALS: At meals women follow the custom of serving the men first before enjoying their own meal.

When it comes to serving people at a meal you always serves others first, I have no problem with that, but I will not serve a man first simply because he is a man!

4. CHAPERONING: It is customary for a woman to always be accompanied when she leaves the home. Living alone, too, is unusual.

This just... maybe if I was in India I would accept this? As a woman I live by something called a 'rape schedule' whenever I am outside of my home and I acknowledge this so maybe if I were in India I'd agree that chaperoning was a good idea but I live in Australia and I have many Indian friends. The women are not chaperoned about and often do their own things.

5. WOMEN IN PUBLIC: Generally it is improper for women to speak with strangers on the street and especially to strike up a casual conversation. Similarly, drinking alcohol or smoking in public, no matter how innocent, are interpreted as a sign of moral laxity and are not acceptable.

Uh-huh... I'm sorry, no. I am not going to be mute whenever I go out - I live alone and I have to do things for myself. If I didn't strike up conversations with random people I'd probably never make friends! My closest friends I made because I saw them doing something I thought was cool and went and spoke to them! I believe that this restriction on women speaking to people on the street or having a conversation could be used to isolate women from the world around them and force them to rely totally on their family/husband. Just because it is culturally acceptable in some place else it does not mean it is something that should be encouraged.

Guests in the Home

3. WIFE HOME ALONE: If the lady of the house is home alone and a male visitor comes to see her husband, it is not proper for her to invite him in, nor for him to expect to enter. Rather, he will leave a message and depart.

Definitely don't agree with this one. What if this male visitor is a friend of the family and the husband is out for a few minutes? Should said male visitor go away when my partner is going to be coming back and there is absolutely no chance of me having thoughts of him as a ... man. I can not really be held responsible for his thoughts but most men, in general, are not going to do anything. And if they are (rape schedule again), they're not going to just go away when I say my husband isn't home.

Generally I like this book but there are things that just make me twitch. Yes, I am a feminist and I will fight for women to be treated equally. This does not mean that women should be expected to carry the same loads as men and it doesn't mean that men should be expected to breast feed but it does mean that women are treated with the same respect and courtesy that one would offer men.

[Mana]

Namaste Divine Kala,

Ah, tricky subject, balance is the key; to see eye to eye. Neither more dominant or important. Yet equality is impossible as we are distinctly different.

The very way in which we perceive reality is very different. For the spiritually advanced this is less of an obstacle; for many, this creates all kinds of problems and is the source of great pain.


praNAma

mana

[Divine Kala]

Namaste Divine Kala,

Ah, tricky subject, balance is the key; to see eye to eye. Neither more dominant or important. Yet equality is impossible as we are distinctly different.

Mana, equality is definitely possible. It does not mean being exactly the same - we are different for a good reason. Equality means being treated with the same courtesy and respect.

[kallol]

Dear DK,

due to 1000 years of Islam influence many things have been adopted to suit the society. These continued and have become part of the traditions.

Many of them are those what you said and also the covering of head.

Again the sects in hinduism vary in their views of women. These again are dependent on where they belong to and how was the influence of the other reliegions.

It is always better to check with the basic scriptures for any comments on the restrictions of women.

So I suggest that go for the knowledge that hinduism brings and not the specific traditions (these changes with time, space and other influences)

[Mana]

Mana, equality is definitely possible. It does not mean being exactly the same - we are different for a good reason. Equality means being treated with the same courtesy and respect.

Namaste DK,

Just for the perspective, I ask you this question:
Do you think that all men are equal?
Is not the difference that which makes life so rich?

Just the other day I watched and listened in dismay, as a group of single mothers who were telling there small boys that they must be men; stronger than the rest. They were not to be weak or show weakness. These women find my spiritual nature laughable, as if in my very nature there is some thing wrong, I should be aggressive, competitive, in essence to win their acceptance, affection.

From where does balance emerge, the divine mother shakti.

We should all show courtesy and respect, to all; in our every action and thought, in our very existence.

praNAma

mana

[Adhvagat]

Wouldn't this actually prove that men are inferior? Men need the women's eros in order to feel balanced and complete.

We're just very needy.

On the whole eastern traditional customs and western life are worlds apart. I'd take the best out of one and adapt to my life.

And this is the best analogy I've seen for marriage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcQd3GjFNLQ#t=280s

[Eric11235]

Vannakam,

in my humble view, all created things are of an equal nature. Ahimsa is the primary support for this view. We do not harm creatures because we hold them in regard to ourselves. We all pump blood (or create chlorophyll for the much underrepresented plants). We all have some level of thought processes. We all have souls, why are we not equal?

Equality is not a tricky subject but years of patriarchy have skewed the view of women. Mythology across multiple cultures such as in babylon with the story of Tiamat or in China with the story of Nu Kwa show that once women were held in much higher regard but fell from grace at some point (both of these women were creator gods who were eventually deposed)

Jiva-Atman is perfect and formless and resides in each of us. Brahman, the perfection for which we all strive, is formless beyond comprehension and the source of all joy. Both of these inhabits all of us so why are we not equal?

These are of course only my opinions but I think that aside from some parts that are there (or not as may be the case) all humans are at their most basic form, equal.

Culture is what decides who is "better" than the other, and I understand that some people have some strengths over others but again, at our most basic we are all the same, brahman and atman. I am a proponent of gender equality, and excuse me if I sound just a little more than naive.

[Believer]

Namaste,

Pietro, Thanks for the link.
Most 'high priests' talk about religious stuff, without going into its application to real life situations.
Applied Hinduism is what the common man needs.
But the people residing on the top of mountains refuse to come down and talk at the street level.
It is probably too painful for them to interact with the ones who 'don't know'. Why waste time on a futile effort when you could be enjoying the communion through meditation.
Does that fall under the banner of selfishness?


Pranam.

[sm78]

Yes, saiva siddhanta church's view are pretty conventional in this regard. But unless you are looking to becoming full time member of the organization/sect - this should not bother. Sivaya subramuniyaswami also writes many useful things in his views. I cannot agree with him in many other places including the role of women, but I still find him very authentic and wise.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

One of the most wonderful aspects of Hinduism is the reality of a living Guru. Not many other faiths have it. When a teacher writes books, they have to look at who the audience is. Basically the audience here is 'anyone interested in Hinduism, both seekers, and born Hindus.' There is no way any book like this can be written for everyone. Some will disagree. Some won't. There will be great variation in responses. That's all good, because it demonstrates in the end that Hinduism essentially is a Self taught religion. Almost, if not all, teachers implore us to do our own seeking, and realize truths for ourselves.

So these types of teachings don't apply to all. A good example is the marriage where the man isn't really living up to his Purusha dharma, as understood in many other texts of Hinduism. In that case its the woman's duty to 'wear the pants in the family' for lack of a better expression. I know a few Indian Tamil (and otherwise) where this is the case, because of the individual karmas or personalities involved.

Traditionally, a Guru might be a beggar in a hut in village, not writing books at all, but being Guru to all who could see Him in that way. Advice would vary, according to the needs of an individual. That is also why we have astrology, and ayurveda. Those two ancient help sciences, in particular, are really person specific, not written to audiences. If an ayurvedic doctor or qualified astrologer just wrote one message to all in a book, it wouldn't be much use to anyone. Just who would he be writing for?

I don't agree with everything in that book either, as it doesn't work for me. We're not blind followers of dogma as Hindus, or as members in various groups. We can think. A couple of Subramuniyaswami's core messages and teachings were, "Lean on your own spine," and "Why ask me?"

So books were meant as general guidelines, not rules. (Especially in India while crossing roads, my wife appreciated me walking a couple of feet in front of her. That way the next errant autorickshaw would hit me, but most of the time we wouldn't even notice it, much less care.) At the same time I know for fact Subramuniyaswami often spent 4 or many more hours per day talking directly with His devotees, one on one. Now that's where the REAL teachings come in. Totally individualised.

Aum Namasivaya