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Thread: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

  1. #1

    Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    THE QUESTION IS - DOES CHAITANYA MAHAPRABHU BELONG TO MADHVA ACHARJYA'S BRAHMA SAMPRADAYA

    THE ANSWER IS - A BIG NO
    - HOW ?

    It is Baladev Bidya Bhushan (the disciple of Biswanath Chakrabory) who for the first time declares that chaitanya mahaprabhu belongs to madhva acharjya's brahma sampradaya. the story goes like this :-

    the pujaries (priest) of govinda mandir of Galta near Joypur , Rajasthan belong to chaitanya's gaudiya vaishnabism. it should be mentioned here that during sri rup sanatan sri jib goswami ,the govindadev was offered puja by gaudiya in Brindaban. for the fear of Aurangzeb Govindadev was brought to Galta near the capital of Maharaja Joy Singha.The gaudiya pujaries also went to Galta.Afterward the pandits of Joypur questioned the gaudiya pujaries sampradaya as vaishnab being unsatisfied the pandits got the gaudiyas out of the Govinda Mandir.

    In the mean time Biswanath chakraborty who used to live in Brindaban, sent his disciple Baladev Bidya Bhusan in 1706 to get the gaudiya pujaries back in the Govinda Mandir with honour. But the pandits of Joypur were not ready to accept any vaishnab who did not belong to the four sampradaya as mentioned in Padma Purana.Baladeb Bidya Bhusan who wrote ' Govinda Vasya ' defended the gaudiya and defeated the pandit of Joypur by his sheer expertise and proved that Chaitany Mahaprabu's Gaudiya Vaishnabism is nothing but a part of Madhva sampradaya and thus was able to get back the gaudiya pujaries in Govinda Mandir.

    It is also found that in Kabikarnapur's ' Gaurganoddasya Dipika' kabikarnapur states that chaitany prabhu belongs to Madhva sampradaya but this sloka does not bear any sloka sankhya ( number). kabikarnapur has given a list of names of guru parampara of madhva sampradaya. It is not known how kabikarnapur collected the names of 15 gurus of far away southern udipi math and secondly the names of guru in the list of kabikarnapur and the list kept in udipi math are different. Baladev bidya bhusan includes Madhabendra puri in his Madhva sampradaya list of guru parampara. It is believed that baladev bidya bhusan has some weakness towards madhva sampradaya because in his early life he was associated with udipi math. Expert opines that the historical accuracy of kabikarnapur's list can easily be challanged.

    The lists are as follows :
    Gaurganoddesya dipika list and list kept in udipi math

    1. Madhvacharjya and 1. Madhva 1040 saka
    2. Padmanava and 2. Padmanava 1120 saka
    3. Narahari and 3. Narahari 1127 saka
    4. Madhava Dwij and 4. Madhava 1136 saka
    5. Akhsova and 5. Akhsovya 1159 saka
    6. Jayatirtha and 6. Jayatirtha 1177 saka
    7. Jyansindhu and 7. Vidyadhiraj 1190 saka
    8. Mahanidhi and 8. Kabindra 1255 saka
    9. Vidyanidhi and 9. Bagish 1261 saka
    10. Rajendra and 10. Ramchandra 1269 saka
    11. Jayadharma and 11. Vidyanidhi 1298 saka
    12. Purusottam Brahnya and 12. Raghunath 1366 saka
    13. Vyas Tirtha and 13. Raghubarsa 1424 saka
    14. Laksmipati and 14. Raghuttam 1471 saka
    15. Madhabendra and 15. Bedavyastirtha 1517 saka


    Now it is clear the names of guru in kabikarnapur's list are not written by kabikarnapur himself. It is also proved from 'Gaurganoddeshya dipika ' and 'chaitanychandrodaya' that chaitanya does not belong to Madhva sampradaya.

    Now come to the point of defference between Madhvarjya's vaishnabism and that of chaitanya's.
    1. according to madhva the goal of 'sadhan' is 'mukti' whereas according to chaitanya 'mukti bancha kaitab',krishnaprem jiber param sadhya.
    2. according to madhva jib and brahma is totally different but according to chaitanya the relation between jib and brahma is ved and aved.
    3. acccording to chaitanya ' Radhar prem sadhya siromano' which is just opposit madhva who compares gopi with apsara of swarga which is a crime in the eyes of gaudiya vaishnab.If chaitany were from the madhva sampradaya then he would have never preached greatness of srimati radharani and also swarup damodar sanatan goswami rup goswami jib goswami raghunath das goswami and krishna das kabiraj would not have preached greatness of srimati radha and gopi.madhva was dead against gopi.
    4.according to chaitanya sri krishna is param tattva but according to madhva sri vishnu is the highest
    5. according to chaitanya sri krishna is purna avatar swayang bhagaban and other avatars are his part. sri krishna only to be upasya but according to madhva all the avatars of sri bhagan are purna avatar and any avatar can be upasya.
    6. according to chaitanya sudhya bhakti ( pure devotion) is appropriate but according to madhva it is sakam bhakti ( devotion with wishes)
    7. according to chaitanya sri bhagaban accepts seva from santa, dasya, sakhya batsalya and madhur bevotee but according to madhva it is from dasya only.
    8. according to chaitanya 'madhurjya pradhan prem bhakti' is right way but according to madhva it is 'aishorjya pradhan'
    9. according to chaitanya braja gopies are great in devotion but according to madhva it is brahma.
    10. all bhakta irrespective of caste colour etc are authorised to have moksha as chaitanya says but according to madhva it is only higher castes
    11. according to chaitany srimad bhagabat is the greatest grantha but according to madhva it is mahabharata.

    Finally in the words of Dr Sarbapally Radhakrishnan " Though some of the writers belonging to school call themselves the followers of madhva, in their thaught they are really nearer Ramanuja, since they themselves emphasize identity, even when they admit differences"

    Therefore it is concluded that chaitanay does never belong to madhva sampradaya and the contents of 'gaurganoddesya dipika by kabikarnapur' that claims chaitanya as part of madhva school is totally fake and fabricated and most probably later inclusion. the problem is solved in drama 'chaitanya chandraodaya' sloka-6-7 by kabikarnapur.
    Last edited by uttam; 20 December 2011 at 07:39 PM. Reason: correction

  2. #2
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    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    Hello,

    It is very uncharacteristic of an "Uttam" to find 'faults' in a Vaishnava tradition and please understand that, four sampradaya have difference in terms of what makes up their school of thought but the conclusion are same. (Otherwise, four sampradayas itself will have four different goals and they cannot have any meaningful conclusion.)

    Does Gaudiya math belongs to the sampradaya of Madhva? It is a very tricky question and the uninformed and jealous onlooker never get the fitting answer and unfortunately most of the followers of these sampradays themselves do not understand the reality. Consider this to understand the 'four' parampara....

    They are called "Vaishnava" for the reason that the parampara begins and ends with "Vishnu" as the original teacher and ultimate aim. If beginning is taken as most important, anyone from the four tradition can identify themselves belonging to any one of the four for the reason that the root being "Vishnu" or "Krishna".

    Philosophical differences are not really big differences when they are understood well and any vaishnava can relate and understand the different style, sadhana of these paramparas as they ultimately guide the practitioner to the very same goal, ie Sri Vishnu.

    The points you listed as differences between the schools is not really true. Here is my brief responses


    1. According to madhva the goal of 'sadhan' is 'mukti' whereas according to chaitanya 'mukti bancha kaitab',krishnaprem jiber param sadhya.

    Bhakthi is the goal of both Madhva and Gaudiya and mukthi is only the transition from bondage to liberation or an intermittent gift of Bhakthi. Even after Mukthi, it is Bhakthi, which continues, and if this is understood, you can see no differences in the philosophy of Madhva and Gaudiya and it is only then how it is expressed. This is very much the philosophy of Srimadacharya.

    2. according to madhva jib and brahma is totally different but according to chaitanya the relation between jib and brahma is ved and aved.

    According to Srimadacharya, the Brahman and Jiva are different but they are related eternally. (Second point is not very much stressed in the court of Tarka, Vada etc. as it is not important to counter the Advaita). The relationship is "ParaTantra" for the Jiva and the dependence is on the Brahman. Gaudiya's do not equate the Jiva as Brahman and they still maintain that "jiva" is dependent on Brahman for its very existence and functioning as much as the Madhva's philosophy. A deeper study of TattvaVada will reveal the fact that, the Jiva is a "pratiBimba" of its immediate higher jiva and the first creation is the PratiBimba of the Lord Himself. (Though, Brahman is not the material cause but the Jivas are reflection of Brahman in the gunas that constitutes their SvaRupa). It is very much same when the Gaudiyas say, the relationship is "Acintya BedAbeda" (Beda is because of the material cause as well as the capacity to hold and express the "rasa" but Abeda since the very jiva reflects the "rasa" or Guna of the Lord to its potential and it is still "Acintya cos there is no "absolute" boundary or demarcation of the difference or similarity.)


    3. acccording to chaitanya ' Radhar prem sadhya siromano' which is just opposit madhva who compares gopi with apsara of swarga which is a crime in the eyes of gaudiya vaishnab.If chaitany were from the madhva sampradaya then he would have never preached greatness of srimati radharani and also swarup damodar sanatan goswami rup goswami jib goswami raghunath das goswami and krishna das kabiraj would not have preached greatness of srimati radha and gopi.madhva was dead against gopi.

    It is your own idea with out much information about TattvaVada or AstaMata practices. Gopi Bhava is very much practiced in the Madhva Sampradaya and the Paryaya Swamis have rituals, which require this Bhava rather than pure "Dashya" bhava.


    4.according to chaitanya sri krishna is param tattva but according to madhva sri vishnu is the highest

    According to Srimadacharya, Sri Vishnu is Sri Krshna and they both are at the same level and teaching any difference to them is offense. So what is the difference you are seeing here and on what basis?

    5. according to chaitanya sri krishna is purna avatar swayang bhagaban and other avatars are his part. sri krishna only to be upasya but according to madhva all the avatars of sri bhagan are purna avatar and any avatar can be upasya.

    It is not "according" to Srimadacharya but according to "Some" so-called followers of Srimadacharya. Remember the rule, "No difference in Sri Vishnu" and for a sincere Madhva, Sri Krshna is same in all aspects as Sri Vishnu or any other avatara of Sri Vishnu. Swayam Bagavan has no special meaning for Madhvas and Gaudiya's have this special meaning not on the basis of "gunas" and it is purely on the basis of the "expressed" Rasa. In other words, Gaudiyas also do not accept any differences to any avatar of Sri Krshna but only acknowledge that, Sri Krshna is the form where all the "Rasa"s are expressed. (It is very subtle and i don't expect you to understand it fully but i expect you to at least know the fact that, there is no difference in the philosophical terms between Madhvas and Gaudiyas)


    6. according to chaitanya sudhya bhakti ( pure devotion) is appropriate but according to madhva it is sakam bhakti ( devotion with wishes)

    It is dry statement. You have to explain what is "Pure Bhakthi"? If you mean that it is the engagement in the service of Lord with out any rewards for the individual, it is same in the Madva's world as well. NishkamaKarma is the qualification to perform Bhakthi Sadhana. (Devotion with personal wishes is an oxymoron)

    7. according to chaitanya sri bhagaban accepts seva from santa, dasya, sakhya batsalya and madhur bevotee but according to madhva it is from dasya only.

    It is your made up statement and Srimadacharya confirms that Sri Krshna can be served in all these Bhavas. What he has chosen is "Dasya" bhava as Sri Hanuman, Sri Bhima and as Srimadacharya but nowhere he or his sisyas denied that other Bhavas couldn’t be means to serve the Loving Lord. (The DasaKoota has numerous songs with other bhavas and you have to just get yourself a change to enjoy those. The famous Sripada Raja's "Poppu hogana baro Ranga poppu hogana" is surely not a dasya bhava)


    8. according to chaitanya 'madhurjya pradhan prem bhakti' is right way but according to madhva it is 'aishorjya pradhan'

    This is again ignorant statement.

    9. according to chaitanya braja gopies are great in devotion but according to madhva it is brahma.

    Not really. In the hierarchy of the baddha Jivas, it is the Brahma who is the height along side with Vayu. ( JivaUttamas). The Gopi's are not Jivas in bondage and they are always submerged in the mood of madurya bhava and serve Sri Krshna. In Madva School, there is equivalent class of jiva who are ever liberated and they are called Rjus. TattvaVada also emphasize that, the knowledge and devotion of the jiva after liberation increases as per the capacity of the Jiva (and also extends that, as the devotion in the state of liberation is expressed fully the capacity of the devotion also increases for that jiva. In other words, there are jivas who are very very higher in terms of devotion to Lord compared to Brahma and Gopis are such class as per Gaudiya). Not knowing any one of the philosophy and assuming intermediate points, as the philosophy of the school is only ignorance of both the schools.


    10. all bhakta irrespective of caste colour etc are authorised to have moksha as chaitanya says but according to madhva it is only higher castes

    Is it so?? All the "jivas" which can express the devotion towards Lord though had birth in different caste and color (due to the effect of Kali) can attain the Moksha is same philosophy and understanding in both the school. Srimadacharya calls such jiva as "MukthiYogya" with the svaRupa as "Saatvic" and Sri Chaitanya simply calls them Sri Krshna devotees. Where is the difference?? The famous KanakaDasa is very revered in the Madhva sampradaya and his birth is not so called "higher" caste. More interestingly, Srimadacharya rejects the social classification of the material world and he only accepts the classification of the jiva as per the varna (and the inherent quality of being Saatvic) and VarnaDharma is what is emphasized in the TattvaVada and that Varna is not purely by birth alone. (svaDharma is the most important and svaDharma is performing the duties of the jiva’s inherent nature and not the assumed occupational duty of the living condition)


    11. according to chaitany srimad bhagabat is the greatest grantha but according to madhva it is mahabharata.

    Is it a difference???? I can only laugh. Please read MBTN as well as Srimadacharyas Bagavata Taatparya Nirnaya.

    A humble request to you is, please refrain from hatred and a vaishnava do not have any jealously towards another vaishnava or attempts spreading misinformed information which will cause doubt in the mind of new practitioners. Regardless of how you begin, the path you take as long as the ultimate goal is Sri Vishnu, please honor that path, respect that practice and if you cannot glorify such group, mutt or society, at least do not throw ill-natured offensive statements.

    Let Krshna shower His entire blessing to you.

    Hare Krshna.!

  3. #3

    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    Hellow grames, how are you ,hope fine. I feel your response hurts me and so I think you are over estimating yourself ,seem to be young Madhva . first of all my question is not "Does Gaudiya math belongs to the sampradaya of Madhva?" .Remember my rule " bhakti vinod thakur and bhakti sidhanta saraswati's gaudiya math and chaitany mahaprabhu's gaudiya vaishnavism are not same" my dear friend ,the goal is thought to be different and so there are four sampradayas and for your meaningful conclusion in spite of different school of thought why only four sampradayas of vaishnava to be considered ? Beyond that there are shakta, jaina, buddha islam Christian all are of different school of thought and conclusion is same ,the supreme lord . So I am not in your concluded line of thought. if you are there remain there for ever. I am vaishnav and i will go by my school of thought.so far chaitanya mahaprabu's vaishnav tradition is concerned , the concept of Krishna tattva and vishnu tattva is clearly explained in krishna das kabiraj's chaitanya charitamrita. your remark 'the parampara begins and ends with "Vishnu" and "Vishnu" or "Krishna" to be elaborated. My head ,my hand,my leg,my nose, my eyes etc etc are not same but they all constitute me. In chaitanya charitamrita there mention who is krishna who is vishnu who is Narayana and I belong to that school of thought. It is due to difference in philosophy that sampradayas are created and headed by better qualified people than you and me and i don't understand why they can not understand your simple view that “Philosophical differences are not really big differences when they are understood well and any vaishnava can relate and understand the different style, sadhana of these paramparas as they ultimately guide the practitioner to the very same goal, i.e Sri Vishnu.” and creat their own sampradaya.

    Now come to my points. I have not tried to find faults in Madhva samparadaya in my post . I am just opposing the concept of chaitanya mahaprabu being the part of Maddhva sampradaya as advocated in some quarter of vaishnav tradition.In that context only I point out the differences between the school of thought of Madhva and chaitanya mahaprabhu to maintain the correct view that in no way chaitanya mahaprabhu is related to madhva sampradaya.

    1. bhakti never considered to be goal by any school . bhakti is means to reach the end the goal i.e sri krishna. but madhva's end(goal) is mukti. in our tradition there are five types of mukti- sarsti, salokya, sarupya, samipya and sajujya and chaitanya mahaprabhu declares that any type of mukti is kaitab and sajujya is kaitab pradhan. you may say "mukthi is only the transition from bondage to liberation or an intermittent gift of Bhakthi. Even after Mukthi, it is Bhakthi, which continues". let it be but then also you are in the state of mukti which is a kaitab as mahaprabhu describes. so there is a vast difference because when madhva says mukti is end(goal) , mahaprabhu says mukti is kaitab. Madhva says Salvation consists in the realisation of bliss, which constitutes the very essence of the individual self i.e., the liberation is SELF–REALISATION consisting in the enjoyment of such bliss as remained latent in the soul. MUKTI is the highest PURUSH+RTHA .i.e., desirable objective of the Soul. I again say "don't mingle bhakti vinod thakur and bhakti sidhanta saraswati's gaudiya math with chaitana mahaprabhu's gaudiya vaishnavism"

    2. Madhva is for hard dualism ( ved).but Achintya ved-aved is fundamental concept of chaitany school. madhva never mentioned in his works the relationship is achintya ved-aved. madhva just advocates dwaita against sankaracharaya's adawita concept and there is also ved-aved concept in between but achintya ved-aved is the fundamental concept of chaitanya. I am least interested to understand achinta ved-aved tattva in your line of thinking or gaudiya math.
    My simple understanding is that madhva never mentions about achintya ved-aved in his writing or discourse rather he only describes dwaita ( ved) relationship.who I am to say that madhva supports achintya ved-aved by analyzing this or that out of dwaita

    3. The central point of chaitanya's vaishnav tradition is Radha. no vaishnav in the line of chaitanya can think of his existence without Radha . gopi ,radha and radha Krishna leela are the central points which gives pleasure to vaishnava and mahaprabhu is here to feel radha’s prem towards Krishna and so radha prem is sadhya siromoni for vaishnava of chaitanya line whereas having gone through srimad bhagabat ,madhva not even uttered a word about radha. Is it my own idea ? And here you are teaching me how gopi bhava is practiced in madhva sampradaya. This is hypocracy my friend.

    4. Krishna tattva and Vishnu tattva is clearly explained in chaitany charitamrita.you can see there who is Krishna and who is Vishnu and I belong to that school of thought . my simple question is if both Krishna and Vishnu same then why madhva mentions only Vishnu, narayana and not Krishna as param tattva ? he could have mentioned Krishna instead of Vishnu or narayana.

    5. you are so confident about my understanding ! gita , mahabharat and srimad bhagabad clearly declare that sri krishna is swayam bhagaban and even after going through all these why madhva mentions Vishnu is param tattva . ? you say “Gaudiyas also do not accept any differences to any avatar of Sri Krshna but only acknowledge that, Sri Krshna is the form where all the "Rasa"s are expressed.” which gaudiya you talk of ? so far I know the gaudiya in the line of chaitanya maintains that Vishnu and narayana do not have madhurjya rasa . it is only krishna who enjoys madhurjya rasa. Then how gaudiya will equate them both ? do you understand rasa concept fully ? my dear friend ! chaitanya’s raganuga philosophy based on this madhurjya rasa which is missing in madhva. You may not expect me to understand this subtle subject but I do expect for you and as you say “there is no difference in the philosophical terms between Madhvas and Gaudiyas) surely this gaudiya is none other than bhakti vinod thakur, bhakti sidhanta saraswati and the family.

    6. According to Madhva ,MUKTI is attained only through sublime BHAKTI i.e., devotion towards the Lord shri Vishnu . In Madhva siddhanta, there is no place for MUDABHAKTI (Blind Bhakti), i.e., Bhakti without Jnan as an instrument of liberation. Infact BHAKTI and JNANA go hand in hand. This jnan-mishra bhakti has not been accepted by mahaprabhu. Pure bhakti can be seen in chapter 8 ,Madhya lila ,chaitany charitamrita in the conversation between mahaprabhu and Rai Ramananda. So my statement is not dry.it is full of rasa ( madhur rasa) but unfortunately you can not taste it.

    7. is it my made up statement that there are five bhava which are directly related to five rasa.out of these five bhavas , mahaprabhu emphasizes madhur bhava ( Madhurjya rasa) on which raganuga bhakti is based and this is a basic difference between madhva and mahaprabhu.

    8. if you and your madhva gaudiya family do not understand rasa tattva of mahaprabhu how can you realize madhurjya pradhan prem bhakti and aisharjya pradhan bhakti. This is the reason that madhva mentions Vishnu as param tattva and not Krishna because only Krishna is related to madhurjya prem only and not Vishnu or other form of avataras.I am ignorant or you ?. I find you in chaitanya charitamrita chapter 3 adi lila where it says:
    Sakal jagate more kare bidhi bhakti
    Bidhi bhaktye braja bhava paite nahi shakti
    Aisarjya jnanete sav jagat mishritaL
    Aisarjya sithil preme nahi mor prita
    Aisarjya jnane bidhi marge bhajan karia
    Baikunthate jaya chaturbid mukti paiya.

    9.Are you trying to re-write tattvavada in the light of braja gopi ? And so I address you as new avatar of madhvacharaya in this modern age. Madhva him self compares gopi with apsara of swarga .i think you better know the status of apsara in swarga and here you are teaching me that gopies are equivalent class of jiva who are ever liberated and they are called Rjus of madhva school. I like to draw your attention that madhva studied srimad bhagabad and you need not clarify who gopies are and who Rjus are.Read chapter 8 madhya leela of chaitanya chartamrita and acquire some idea of gopi prem and if something understood at least leave this space for me because it is not your subject at all. I do not understand which gaudiya you talk of . do they not read chaitany charitamrita ? may be they are not in the line of chaitanya mahaprabhu because if vaishnab, in the line of chaitanya reads chaitanya charitamrita will never explain like you . Krishna kabiraj himself never mention madhva sampradaya in his whole grantha.only one occasion he describes in Chaitanya-caritamrita, Madhya 9.245-278. The account consists of a typical encounter with a rival group: the Madhva Vaishnavas fail to recognize Mahaprabh as a Vaishnava, but think of him as a Mayavadi. Mahaprabhu goes on to criticize the Madhva doctrines for being mixed and having the goal of liberation rather than prema. The Madhva acharya acknowledges the inferiority of his doctrine, but out of loyalty to Madhvacharya, does not convert. In verse 277, Mahaprabhu says, “The only good thing I see in your sampradaya is that you accept the eternal nature of the Supreme Lord’s form.”

    10. colour means chaturbarna and caste is chaturashram. According to madhva only deities, rishi and Brahman( sattvic) can attain mukti and those who involved in samsar particularly asurswabhava never get liberated. Has mahaprabhu categorized any such class to attain Krishna prem? For mahaprabhu barna and ashram has no place. Any barna and any ashram can attain Krishna prem. I again remind you - do not try to be madhva in your self and follow what madhva himself writes in his works.
    The souls are broadly classified in three categories 1. Sawtika, 2.Rajasa and 3.Tamasa. The first category i.e, Satwika alone can attain MUKTI. And hence the souls in their instrinsic nature are different from one another; there is a gradation among them in the state of MUKTI too.The real nature of the soul is his existence in his pure state of consciousness and bliss. This is not realised by him in Samsara, when he is enveloped in Avidya,Srrow and Fear. Avidya, Kama and Karma are his empirical bondages. When these extraneous associations are got rid of through SADHANA, the soul gets complete unfoldment of its true nature of bliss and consciousness. In that state of MUKTI his false sense of separateness and independence from the Lord vishnu is shred and he realizes how closely he is related to the Lord vishnu.

    Mahaprabhu says any one living in the midst of samsar can attain Krishna prem by doing nam sankirtan.Jagai Madhai of nabadwip also attained. So easy is mahaprabhu’s vaishnab dharma.

    11. In regard to Madhva’s Sriman Mahabharata tatparya nirnaya, it is said that this is his biggest work in terms of size. It comprises of thirty two chapters spread over 5200 slokas. In the first chapter he has established that Narayana is the supreme Lord of this world, that He is full of auspicious qualities (gunaparipurna), without absolutely no blemish whatsoever (nirdosa).
    Whereas , he has written a commentary on the Bhagavata called'Bhagavata tatparya nirnaya'. In this work he has explained the meaning of several passages and the implications of several anecdotes. As usual, he has not commented on every single verse, but has chosen only those which have some philosophical import, profusely substantiating them with quotations so that one can look for 'ViShNusarvOttamatva' and treat anything opposed to it as false knowledge.

    At this what should I conclude. You go on laughing I don’t mind.

    Lastly, I request you to identify which vaishnab has created false birth place of mahaprabhu as mayapur ? which vaishnab is acquiring so much money and scandals in the math . which vaishnab is spreading his own version of mahaprabhu’s vaishnab dharma . I do not belong to any math and I need not be jealous of any kind but I do protest against falsehood in the name of chaitanya’s vaishnab tradition. Like me many people know the truth but I try to reach out to people with the true/correct informatioin of mahaprabhu. I have not discovered the truth which is there where it should be but a cover has been dropped on the truth and my small attempt is to remove the cover and take out the truth. I can not glorify falsehood .I am always in search of truth.without having selfish end and nothing to be jealous of any kind and rest is as sri Krishna wishes. A humble request to you is, please read and read and read and read chaitanya charitamrita edited by anybody who does not belong to any samparadays.
    Last edited by uttam; 08 January 2012 at 06:19 AM. Reason: correction

  4. #4
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    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    Dear Uttam,

    I think i have given you a larger than what you require answer and you have not understood or open minded enough to "understand" them. The questions you have listed here are the very same i have already answered.

    You are internally "fuming" about the success of "ISKCON" but for a vaishnava, its not the Organization "ISKCON" which matters but the meaningful life where you can approach a "Vaishnava" who can lead you to "Lord Krshna".

    Put it this way.... Bliss with out the presence of Lord is like Light with out Sun. If you can understand this metaphore, i think my answers are easy to grasp.

    I am not a YOUNG MADVA but a baby Vaishnava.

    Hare Krshna!

  5. #5

    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    I would like to present the encounter of Mahaprabhu with the Tattvabadi Acharaya from chapter nine Madhya lila chaitanya charitamrita which will reflect the difference between Chaitanya Mahapravu's vaishnab dharma and Madhvacharaya's dwaitabad.

    CC Madhya 9.233: Tattvavadigan prabhuke mayavadi jnyane / pratham darshane na koila sambhasane : : (When the Tattvabadi Vaiṣṇavas first saw Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, they considered him a Mayavadi sannyasi and did not talk to him.)

    CC Madhya 9.234
    : pachhe prema-besh dekhi hoila chamatkar / vaishnab jnyanete bohu karilo satkar : : .(Later, after seeing Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in ecstatic love, they were struck with wonder. Then, considering him a Vaishnab, they gave him a nice reception).

    CC Madhya 9.235
    : Tan sovar antare garbo jani gaurchandra / Tan sova sahit gosthi karila arambha. : : (Considering them very proud ,Sri Chaitanya began his discussion.)

    CC Madhya 9.236
    : Tattvavadi acharaya sastre param prabin / tanre prasna koila prabhu hoiya jeno dina. : : (The chief acharaya of the Tattvavāda community was very learned in the revealed scriptures. Sri Mahaprabhu humbly questioned him.)

    CC Madhya 9.237
    : Sadhya sadhan ami na jani valo mote / sadhya sadhan sreshtha janaha amate. : : (Mahaprabhu said, "I do not know very well about “SHADHYA-SADHAN”. Please tell me of the best of “SHADHYA-SADHAN ")

    CC Madhya 9.238
    : Acharaya kahe varnashram dharma krishne samarpan / ai hoy Krishna bhakter sreshtha sadhan. : : (The acharaya replied, "Varnashram Dharma ( Dharma of the four castes and the four āśhramas) Krishne Samarpan(dedicated to Kishna), and this is the best of Sadhan for a Krishna bhakta.

    CC Madhya 9.239
    : Panchavid mukti paiya vaikunthe gaman / sadhya sreshtha hoy ai sastra nirupan. : : ( By dedicating Varnashram Dharma to Krishna , one becomes eligible for five kinds of liberation. Thus he is transferred to the spiritual world in Vaikuntha. This is the best of “SADHYA” which is the verdict of all revealed scriptures. ( sastra nirupan)"

    CC Madhya 9.240
    : Prabhu kahe –sastre kahe sravan-kirtan / Krishna prem seva-phaler param sadhan. : : (Mahaprabhu said, "According to the śāstras, sraban-kirtan (the process of hearing and chanting) is the best means( param sadhan) to attain Krishna prem seva phal.)

    CC Madhya 9.241
    : Sravan kirtan hoite krishne hoy prema / sai param purusartha , purusartha sima . : : (From sraban-kirtan’ develops Krishna prem which is regarded as param-purusharth ,the limit of purusharth.)

    CC Madhya 9.242
    : Karma tyag karma ninda sorva sastre kahe/kKarma hoite Krishna prem bhakti kabhu nohe : : "In every revealed scripture there is condemnation of fruitive activities. It is advised everywhere to give up engagement in fruitive activities, for no one can attain Krishna prem by executing them.

    CC Madhya 9.243
    : Panchavid mukti tyag kare bhaktagan / phalgu kari mukti dekhe naraker sama. : : ("Pure devotees reject the five kinds of liberation; indeed, for them liberation is very insignificant because they see it as hellish.)

    CC Madhya 9.244
    : Karma mukti dui bastu tyaje bhaktagan / sai dui sthapa tumi sadhya sadhan . : : ( Both liberation and fruitive activity are rejected by devotees. You are trying to establish these things as Sadhya Sadhan .)

    CC Madhya 9.245
    : Aito vaishnaber nahe sadhya sadhan / Sanyashi dekhiya ama karaha banchan . : : (Mahaprabhu continued speaking to the Tattvabadi acharaya: "Seeing that I am a Sanyashi, you are avoiding me . What you have actually described is not sadhya sadhan of a vaishnab)

    CC Madhya 9.246
    : Suni tattvacharaya hoila antare lajjita / prabhur vaishnabata dekhi hoila bismita. : : ( After hearing mahaprabhu, the acharaya of the Tattvavāda sampradaya became very much ashamed. Witnessing Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's rigid faith in Vaiṣṇavism, he was struck with wonder.

    CC Madhya 9.247
    : Acharaya kahe tumi jai kaha sai satya hoy / sorba sastre vaishnaber ai sunischaya. : : (The Tattvabadi acharaya replied, "What You have said is certainly true. It is the conclusion of all the revealed scriptures of the Vaiṣhṇabas.

    CC Madhya 9.248
    : Tathapi madhvacharaya je koriache nirbandha / sai achorie sove sampradaya sammandha . : : ("Still, whatever Madhvācārya has established as the formula for our sampradaya, we are bound to practice that formula as a policy."

    CC Madhya 9.249
    : Prabhu kahe –karmi jnyani dui bhaktihina / tomar sampradaya dekhi sai dui chinha. : : ( Sri Mahaprabhu said, "Both the Karmi and Jnyani do not have bhakti, they are considered nondevotees. Both elements present in your sampradaya.

    CC Madhya 9.250
    : Sove ek gun dekhi tomar sampradaya / satya bigraha kori Isware karaha nischoy. : : (The only qualification that I see in your sampradaya is that you accept the form of the Lord as truth."

    CC Madhya 9.251
    : Thus Mahaprabhu broke the pride of the Tattvavādīs to pieces. He then went to the holy place phalgu-tirtha.

  6. #6

    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    Dear grames, how can you say to me that I am internally "fuming" about the success of "ISKCON" ? Am i going to take any share from ISKON ? dear friend I know the history of ISKON. I just wonder to think how many times Gaudiya Math established by Bhakti siddhanta saraswati has been cut into pieces and one of the pieces is ISKON. It is the tradition of Gaudiya math gurus to get separated from his own guru and establish own organisation. why so many separate gaudiya maths under different prabhupadas ? It is out of jealousy . Gaudiya people can not tolerate his god brother. By establishing so may gorgeous math and mandir gadiya prabhupadas prove that they are in competition with each other which indicates that they are not friendly. To a gaudiya it is the organisation which matters nothing else. so far your remark its not the Organization "ISKCON" which matters but the meaningful life where you can approach a "Vaishnava" who can lead you to "Lord Krshna".I am sorry. ISKON is not in the correct way of vaishnab tradition Mahaprabhu established. so there is a chance of misleading only.

  7. #7
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    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    Dear Uttam.,

    I do not see any relevancy in your CC excerpt and i do know very well about this conversation and it still does not reveal or reject any word from "Brahma-Madhva-Sampradaya.

    But i am curious as you have made so many imprints on this site for ISKCON not being in line with Sri Mahaprabhu's tradition, i would like to know what is that and what is Sri Mahaprabhu's philosophy??

    Your explanation will be delightful if it can also point out how ISKCON deviates from those.

    Hare Krshna!

  8. #8

    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    Dear grames

    You know very well about this conversation but you do not see any relevancy of my CC excerpt. very sad ! OK I am helping you .please follow. In this encounter Chaitanya Mahaprabhu makes a basic difference between him and Madhva sampradaya .

    (1) Sadhya and Sadhan : According to Tattvabadi (Madhva) sreshtha sadhan is varna ashram dharma krishne samarpan ( this is Karma)and by dedicating varna ashram dharma to Krishna one becomes eligible for five kinds of liberatrion ( Mukti). Thus he is transferred to Vaikuntha. This is the best of “SADHYA” that means Karma and thereby Mukti (liberation) is the goal to be achieved . Madhva says MUKTI is the HIGHEST PURUSHARTHA .i.e., desirable objective of the Soul.
    But Mahaprabhu says Sraban-kirtan (the process of hearing and chanting) is param Sadhan and Krishna prem seva-phal is the Sadhya. He says that from sraban-kirtan, develops Krishna prem which is regarded as PARAM PURUSHARTHA .

    2) Mahaprabhu says “Karma hoite Krishna prem bhakti kabhu nohe” i.e. No one can attain Krishna prem bhakti from karma.

    3) According to Madhva the goal is Mukti ( Liberation) but Mahaprabhu says " Panchavid mukti tyag kare bhaktagan / phalgu kari mukti dekhe naraker sama". : : ("Pure devotees reject the five kinds of liberation; indeed, for them liberation is very insignificant because they see it as hellish.) Moksha (Mukti) is insignificant to them those who are dedicated to Sri Krishna.

    4) Mahaprabhu says that the Tattvabadi establishes Mukti and Karma as sadhy-sadhan but the bhaktagan (devotees) reject both Mukti and Karma. He goes on to say that these two (Mukti and Karma) can not be sadhay-sadhan for vaishnab because both karmi and jnyani is bhaktihin and both karma and jnyan is found in Madhva sampradaya. We know very well that in Madhva siddhanta, there is no place for Bhakti without Jnyan as an instrument of liberation. Infact BHAKTI and JNYANA go hand in hand.


    At the end the Tattvabadi Acharaya said to Mahaprabhu, "What You have said is certainly true. It is the conclusion of all the revealed scriptures of the Vaiṣhṇabas. Still, whatever Madhvācārya has established as the formula for our sampradaya, we are bound to practice that formula as a policy."


    Next part of your query will follow.

  9. #9
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    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    Just a quick note....

    It is not easy to impart or exchange a very very subtle philosophy and practice in few messages. So., please do remember these...

    1. TattvaVadi Acharya with out a name is itself indicates that this conversation is not directed towards Shri Madvacharya Himself or his philosophy.
    2. Secondly, it is the belief/faith of some of Mahaprabu's followers that jiva can directly "attain" or "earn" Krshna prema and thus ignore the strength of what every other Vaishnava believes in. If you are one of them, our discussion will be very simple and easy and pls do let me know if the "other" Vaishnava you are referring here is the so called "nityananda" parivara or the famous "anti-party"?
    3. I suggest you to read the conversation of Mahaprabhu with Ramananda which has lot of subtle information for a sincere bhakta.
    4. Also please read the Chota Haridas story and why he was rejected by Shri Mahaprabu. ( Is it cos of his Karma or Janana or lack of both so that he was not able to maintain the Madurya??)

    With out prejudice, i still love to know your opinions and knowledge and please pardon me for my interruptions.

    Thanks
    Hare Krshna!

  10. #10

    Re: Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

    Dear grames

    I need some clarification from you on para 2 of your latest response.
    Secondly, it is the belief/faith of some of Mahaprabu's followers that jiva can directly "attain" or "earn" Krshna prema and thus ignore the strength of what every other Vaishnava believes in. If you are one of them, our discussion will be very simple and easy and pls do let me know if the "other" Vaishnava you are referring here is the so called "nityananda" parivara or the famous "anti-party"?

    i) who are "some mahapravu's followers"
    ii) who are these every other vaishnab ? what do they ignore ?
    iii) where I am referring 'other vaishnab' ?
    iv) who are so called nityananda parivara and who are famous
    anti-party and against whom the party is anti

    "TattvaVadi Acharya with out a name is itself indicates that this conversation is not directed towards Shri Madvacharya Himself or his philosophy."

    My friend at the very outset of this encounter we see in CC "madhvacharaya sthane aila jaha tattvabadi " :- mahaprabhu comes to madhvacharya's place where tattvabadi staying. and at the end of the encounter the Tattvabadi Acharaya said to Mahaprabhu, "What You have said is certainly true. It is the conclusion of all the revealed scriptures of the Vaiṣhṇabas. Still, whatever Madhvācārya has established as the formula for our sampradaya, we are bound to practice that formula as a policy." still you say this conversation is not directed towards Shri Madvacharya Himself or his philosophy." I think this is subtle for you to understand . can you tell me what is this conversation all about and with whom and on what philosophy mahaprbhu carries out the concversation.

    "It is not easy to impart or exchange a very very subtle philosophy and practice in few messages. So., please do remember these."

    My dear friend I am not discussing madhva philosophy. I am just pointing out the differences between him and tattvabadi which mahaprabhu himself outlines in a very simple sentence. Just tell me when tattvabadi acharaya says by dedicating varna ashram dharma to krishna one can enter vaikuntha by getting five kinds of Mukti but Mahaprabhu says 'No' - it is sraban-kirtan and thereby having krishna prem get krishna sebaphal because devotees reject karma and panchavid mukti,how this simple sentence becomes so subtle that we can not even discuss.I find you discussing tattvabad in other postings of this forum. so when you discuss it is not subtle and when i discuss it becomes subtle.this is nothing but hypocrisy.I think these days every subtle philosophy has been discussed in many forums by learned personalities many times and getting the gist out of their discussion is not a tough job for those who are interested in the subject.what those philosophies do for us if we can not even understand the HEADLINES at least ! Madhva says Vishnu is highest but mahaprabhu says krishna is param tattva. how is it subtle to understand ! please try to acknowledge that there is a difference in krishna tattva and vishnu tattva and there is also a difference between lakshmi tattva and radha tattva. there are some terms like aisharya,madhurya. In Gita, in Bhagavatam, in Mahabharata who is termed as param or highest tattva ? Do you get vishnu saying anything arjuna in Gita ? why it is subtle to understand that sri krishna is param tattva and not vishnu . where do you see madhva says mukti is not our goal rather krishna prem is our goal ? where do you see in madhva that bhakti without jnyan is preferable to bhakti and jnyan go hand in hand.(you can have some idea as to which is preferable from the conversation of mahaprabhu and ramananda in ch.8 madhyalila of CC) I think to understand tattvabad one has to better understand shankar's advaitabad. I want to know when you post your knowledge on tattvabad in other threads in this forum,have you ever felt that advaitabad is subtle ? come on man ,be easy and try to be fair .

    "I suggest you to read the conversation of Mahaprabhu with Ramananda which has lot of subtle information for a sincere bhakta."

    I think if you had read it you would not have argued in such a wrong way.once you say this is subtle I can not understand and then you say this is subtle I should read it .I think if sri krishna wishes I can be able to understand how so ever subtle the given philosophy is and for your information whatever I do ,I get the inspiration only from the conversation of mahaprabhu and rai ramananda because here we find the actual path which mahaprabhu wants us to follow. I request you once again that I am interested only to present that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is no way related to Madhva and the very tattvabad is not my concern.

    I shall let you know my views on ISKON later.
    Last edited by uttam; 28 January 2012 at 09:52 PM.

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