Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhva Acharya ( Brahma Sampradaya)

[grames]

Dear SM

So in the name of policing etc. what is that you are doing in this thread? What is your contribution??

Look at thySelf!

Hare Krshna!

[grames]

Dear Uttam.,

For your age and vaishnava faith especially the desire to glorify Shri Chaitanya, i have lot of respect and admiration but please do not take the position of you being "perfect" and never stated anything "unparlimentary" and hurt anybody by posting series of allegations against Gaudiyas ( though grouping all of them under the "Gaudiya Math" label). It is not sincere and it is not gentleman-ship in first place. If my response to your allegations hurt you, please remember that your allegations itself is very painful to bear and so why a response is given with out worried about what kind of pain it is going to cause you. ( I am not a Buddha or MahaVeer to worry about your peace alone)

Here are some of the points you have to first substantiate with proper, established proof rather than mere allegations.

1. Gaudiya Math is establishment of Sri Saraswati Thakura and blaming everything under this label does not establish the "context" properly.

2. Whether you accept, acknowledge or even admire the fact that, for Saraswati Thakur, Shri Bhakthi Vinoda is not just a father but a Guru. In the spiritual lineage, the Guru Sishya relationship has the utmost importance than their poorvashrama connection. ( A Guru without discipline to lead others is no longer a guru, and SBV's guru has known as "fallen" and you don't require any reminder about them as i believe you know his smoking habits and other non-spritual habits - SBV though a householder was disciplined and more devout than anyone during his time and this is the fact when you go read the frustration of the so called "other" followers of Shri Chaitanya and their routing from SBV's strong disciplined practice of Bhakthi. This is still the fact why people like you are still assuming SBV is wrong, biased but whatever you follow is not. Have you ever got a chance to read SBV's devotional messages and books and his following of Shri Chaitanya? If Mayapur issue has to be settled, looking at this devotion, dedication and sincerity and grand desire and successful accomplishment on spreading the glory of Shri Chaitanya, i will be biased to settle with Mayapur as the true birthplace of Shri Chaitanya as there is no other "authentic" source which will settle this issue comfortably satisfying all. This is also an acceptable pramana if and only if you know what "Pramana Lakshna" means.

3. Assuming the Gaudiya Math started from Shri Baladeva Vidya Bhushana itself is wrong assumption. Whatever is your following of Shri Chaitanya, (Which you havent stated yet and keeping as a secret), you at some point have to understand the reasons behind your following itself when you ask the questions, Why Krsna Prema is not attractive to everyone, why there are rich and poor people, why there are different Bhavas, Why someone always suffer, why someone is always happy etc. If your faith gives you an idea that, all soul are attracted to Krshna equally, then you have to prove it from any estabilished principle or philosophy. And most importantly, why the so called "Krshna Premis" fall and abuse woman, smoke pots and proclaim they are incarnations, Shaki's and manjaris?? Create division among vaishnavas, do not honor other vaishnavas and do everything lethal to demolish the practice where Shri Krshna is always glorified ( Aren't these all signs of demonic rather than Vaishnavas??) Explain please.

4. When you accuse, you have to provide the alternative substantial proof for the Truth and so far in your case, you haven't done that yet. Even this Mayapur issue cannot be settled to fulfill your taste and wish, and every party has their own wisdom, devotion and enough knowledge to prove their identified location as Birthplace of Shri Chaitanya. But aren't you seeing the dry debate and waste of energy debating on a 'lat long' degree precision about so called "Birthplace"?? Have you ever asked what is the total area of Vrndavan?? Is it like Shri Krshna ascends to a particular 'lat long' and thus that is the only point of interest on earth which we MUST celebrate as His Birthplace?? For information sake, can you disclose the audience of this thread the difference in miles between the nine islands and mayapur?? It will be more useful in case you want some reasonable understanding of what is debated and blown out of proportion here.

5. Connecting this parampara to Shri Madhva is not done by the Gaudiya Math but at least from the time of Shri Bala Deva. No one raised questions about this lineage connection until the Gaudiya math become very successful and popular and if you can provide evidences of this being an issue before Gaudiya math success, i will be delighted to know them and also remember, what is not said is not always false. Since no Goswami or Sishya's compositions talked about this parampara connection before Shri BalaDeva, doesn't mean it cannot be true (and it is not Gaudiya Math's idea that Four Sampradaya are the only authentic as you know from own excerpt that, BVB himself didn't accept the Sri Sampradaya disciples under his sampradaya for the sincerity of keeping authenticity of sampradayas as true and intact.)

6. The Shri Madhva relationship did not start from Shri Chaitanya as you think ( but all of the sudden you say, what Sishya started, the Bagavan completed etc. which is very much against your propaganda here - which simply means the Bagavan is connected to the Sisya on the philosophical platform level). You cannot justify or find reasons why Shri Chaitanya accepted someone as His guru and it is not in your rational juridiction. The fact which you do not know or ignorant about is that, with in Madhva school, the Dasa Koota is all about BhavaVrti and it is very much possible that the Bhava School matured in this lineage of DasaKoota. ( This is the reason why we do not find the connection to AstaMata seers from the listed Gaudiya Parampara seers. BNK Sharma gives certain proof in this connection and you should purchase the "History of Dvaita School of Vedanta" for this). But at least for Shri Gauranga followers, the accepted guru parampara cannot be questioned unless there is another one in place. Or Prove that Shri Lakshmipathi Thirta has no connection with the other two 'Puri's conclusively and not controversially because you want to create controvery. First option is not possible as these names are stated clearly in the CC and other Shri Chaitanya biographies accepted by all parties.

7. If you do not have any association with any south Indian traditional vaishnavaism, you will not understand the historical VedaVada and what happens before and after such Vada. "Puri" alone cannot identify one to certain parampara and there are lot of "Tirta' who are not even vaishnavas. Doubts are only in the mind of people who wants to seek the smell and color of individual in the parampara chain but not in the mind of priya devotees who see their devotion, knowledge and attachment to the service of Lord as the connecting thread in the parampara.

8. Shri Chaitanya is a special case where He can belong to any parampara as He is the originator of all. Connecting Him to Shri Madhva parampara is technically not incorrect in first place ( you have not given any alternative to this so far)

9. You asked why He is not connected to Sri Sampradaya and it is dry question as you know already very well from whom Shri Chaitanya took Diksha and Shiksha ( Shiksha is again subtle as He requires no Shiksha at all - from anyone but on the avatara time He does accepts Guru and Shiksha.) So asking such question only makes you look weak and insincere and polarized towards certain unproven and unacceptable faith which is not vaishnava. Same time, one of the greatest Goswami of Vrndavana is actually connected to Sri Sampradaya and if you have information, please identify that Goswami and then understand that, Vaishnava umbrella is not like independent disconnected zone but a very well theistic connected path with ONLY ONE destination.

10. I asked you about Mukthi and your response is either not there or never clear what Mukthi itself means. ( Just stating four types of Mukthi is not enough) The neophytic vaishnava only assumes Mukthi in terms of getting release but no other work after that. Shri Madhva school gives clear details of what happens when Bhakthi is maturing and BSB of Shri Madhva has all the details. ( Give yourself a chance to read and understand first if you have time). If you do not know one philosophy to full extend, you cannot copy paste some web content posted by some misinformed people as some authentic accuse. ( So why i told earlier that i am surprised that this kind of accusations comes from a Non Madhva - for Madhvas the answers are different btw)

So, my response so far and objections everything is not for you as a person but for your posted content here. At an individual level, i will continue to have respect for you regardless of what you gonna say here further and i strongly agree with Shri Madhva that every individual is unique and different from each other always. This is in fact the subtle truth why not all the soul experience the same Bhava with same strength towards Shri Bhagawan and same time no one is superior or inferior in Vrndava regardless of their bhava based relationship with Shri Krshna.

Hare Krshna!

[uttam]

Dear grames,
This is in response to your message dated 17/2/2012. parawise reply. But I like to say that this part is not related to my context. How ever I shall reply.
1) first of all I would say you have started ridiculing . In your very first message you have written ,I quote “It is very subtle and i don't expect you to understand it fully but i expect you to at least know the fact that …….” . I wondered what made you to assess my understating in such a manner in your very first response. Since then and reminder issued by you in other messages from to time I have taken it granted that your subtle theory is nothing but to degrade my understanding. otherwise how you can make comment on subtle issues .I do not understand what is the necessity of reminding some thing as subtle on your part. what is subtle is subtle. The man before you may have the capacity to understand whether any given subject is subtle or not .you should not judge one's understanding in such rude manner.I personally believe that subtle is relative word.It is not necessary that what is subtle for you may be subtle for me also. I have already said all the subtle issues have been discussed in various forums. every body having some interest can get the taste of every subtle issues.OK.
2) About the forms of sri Krishna , I quote some texts from Sri chaitanya charitamrita :

Param iswar Krishna swayam bhagaban :- (Madhy lila -21Chapter)
Tate bada, tanra sama keha nahi ana

( Meaning : Sri Krishna is the supreme personality of godhead ; therefore he is the greatest of all. No one is equal to him, nor is anyone greater than him)

Brahma Vishnu Har, ---- ei srstyadi-iswara :- (Madhy lila -21Chapter)
Tine ajnakari krishnera, Krishna ---adhiswara

( Meaning : The primary predominating iswaras of this creation are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva . Nonetheless, they simply carry out the orders of Krishna , who is the master of them all.)

Brahma shiv agyakari bhakta avatar :- (Madhy lila -20Chapter)
Palanarthe vishne-krishnera swarupa aakar

( Meaning : brahma ,shiva are his bhakta avatar and carry out the orders of sri Krishna whereas Vishnu is his swarup aakar whose duty is palan-poshan

Bhakta-bhede rati-bheda pancha prakara :- (Madhy-19 chapter)
Santa rati dasya rati sakhya rati ara
Vatsalya rati madhura rati—ei pancha vibheda
Rati bhede Krishna bhakti –rase pancha bheda

( Meaning : According to devotee, attachment falls within the five categories of rati like santya rati, dasya rati, sakhya rati, vatsalya rati and madhura rati. This five types of rati arise from the devotee’s different attachements to sri Krishna .The transcendental mellows derived from devotional service are also of five varities.)

Krishna praptira upaya bahu vidha haya :- ( Madhya-8)
Krishna prapti taratamya bahuta achaya

( Meaning : There are various ways and means for attaining the favour of Krishna. All those ways and means should be considered from the point of view of comparative importance )


Kintu yar yei bhav sei sarvottama :- (Madhy-8 chapter)
Tatastha haiya vicharile, ache tara-tama

( Meaning : What ever bhava a devotee has with Sri Krishna is the best for him but when the bhavas are viewed from a neutral position, there are difference of degree of love according to the bhavas .)

Gunadhikye swadadhikya bade prati rase :- (Madhy-8 chapter)
Santya dasya sakhya vatsalyera guna madhurete baise

( Meaning : As the qualities (guna) increase, so the taste also increases in each and every rasa. Hence the qualities found in santy,dasya,sakhya and vatsalya rasa are all manifest in madhurya rasa.)

Gopu anugati vina aishaurya jnyane :- (Madhy-8 chapter)
Vajileho nahi paya brajendra nandane

( Meaning : if we practice without following gopi ( gopi anugati) by dint of aishouya jnyan, we shall not get krishn’s favour.So Ramanand Rai says Kanta prema sarvosadhyasar.)

Ye madhurya urdhva ana, nahi yar samana :-(Madhy-21 chapter)
Paravyome swarupera gane
Yenho saba-avatari, parabyoma-adhikari
E madjurya nahi Narayane

( Meaning : The madhurya of sri Krishna enjoyed by gopies is unparalleled. Nothing is equal to or greater than such madhurya .Even the paravyoma adhikari ,Narayana do not possess such maghurya. Indeed none of the avataras of Krishna upto Narayana possess such madhurya )


Narayana haite krishner asadharana guna :- (Madhy-9 chapter)
Ataeva lakshmira krishne trishna anukhsana

( Meaning : Krishna possess extraordinary qualities which Narayana does not ,so goddess Lakshmi devi always desires the company of sri Krishna)

Swayam bhagavan Krishna hare lakshmira mana: (Madhy-9 chapter)
Gopikara mana harite nare Narayana

( Meaning : Swayam bhagavan Krishna attracts goddess lakshmi devi but Narayan can not attract the minds of gopies.)

Chatur-bhuj murthi dekhiya gopi-ganera aage (Madhy-9 chapter)
Sei krishne gopikara nahe aurage

( Meaning : Although Krishna assumed the four armed form of Narayana, he could not attract the attention of the gopies in ecstatic love )

Lastly. Vaishnaber madhye Ram upasak sab :- (Madhy-9 chapter)
Keha tattvabadi keha haya sri vaishnaba

(Meaning : At the time ,all the south Indian vaishnabs used to worship Lord Ram. Some of them were tattvabadia and some were sri vaishnab)

Sei saba vaishnab mahaprabhura darsane :-(Madhy-9 chapter)
Krishna upasam haila loiya Krishna name

( Meaning : when those vaishnabs met mahaprabhu, they became Krishna bhakta and began to do Krishna nama sankirtana )

I think I have tried my best within the scope of what ever I learnt from my chaitanya faith to make you understand the subtle philosophy of sri chaitanya to some extent. See, you can not treat the flower offered on lotus feet of sri krishna and affixed on back hair of a young lady for fashion as same. Another example. We all have a love-relationship with our parents but do you follow the nature and extent of our love towards our parents and viceversa ? suppose in my case, I love my father and he also loves me but think the nature of love between us and also extent thereof (vatsalya). Again we have servant in our house. His love towards my father and my father’s love towards his servant ( dasya). notice the nature and extent of love. Then again my father’s friends love towards him and his love towards friends ( sakhya). But the nature of love and the extent of love between my father and my mother is very very much different from all these above relations (madhur). so due to difference in nature of love and extent of love towards my father , his swarup is different to us. I mean what I see in my father does not match with what my mother sees in him.his anger, his happiness, his feelings vary to each one of us differently. the relation of love can not exist without having rasa.therefore, how much we are near to our father from the point of view of love to him will determine his impression to us. so although he is one but he is different to each one of us when the question of nearness from the point of view of prema arises.I may be near to my father but not as much as my mother to him.being same, my father is different to me and to my mother from the point of view of prema for him .
To speak the truth does not mean to ridicule. BVB shifted his faith from tattvabad to chaitanya. Why ? definitely he was missing something there with tattvabadies.that does not mean that he disregarded tattvabad. May be he did an experiment by establishing a link between his earlier philosophy (tattvabad) and chaitany’s vaishnab dharma . you have notice that during that period there was no such remarkable gaudiya vaishnab personality in brindavan to challange his experiment , his guru viswanath chakraborty was too old and has the blessings on BVB. BVB's understanding is very high so he shifted the faith so quickly and so easily. I just express my viewes.(so I say may be).I do not doubt his krishna bhakti at all, even I do not dare to think so. But then I can not accept his theory of mahaprabhu being a part of madhva sampradaya. I could have accepted it if his predecessors goswamis did mention in their writings.

[uttam]

Dear grames,

I am not against Gaudiyas, I am against Gaudiya Math and the family .Please make sure from your subtle knowledge on Gaudiya vaishnabism that the people of Nabadwip/Nadia area were known as Gaudiya for long before Gaudiya Math organisation established. The family took the name “Gaudiya” only to take the advantage of sri chaitanya’s vaishnab dharma by equating artificially them with the word Gaudiya vaishnabism. (Just eye wash /ear wash) I do not think those people are intelligent who does not even make a difference between Gaudiya vaishnab and Gaudiya Math/Mission vaishnab. If you were Buddha or Mahaveer or else, It would not have any impact on me.You may spell anything you like against or for me . I will not mind.
Every time you jump from one context to another and want proof from me but I think it is now your turn to prove my thread incorrect. I have presented the differences between them and claimed that due to so many differences Mahaprabhu should not belong to Madhva samparadaya. You have to prove me wrong.
Now I offer parawise reply against your response.

1. I do not blame them to establish my context properly. I blame them for misleading innocent krishna-loving people.

2. I do not accept, acknowledge and even admire SBV or SVSS. I want to know from you who has proved that SVB’s guru was fallen? Do you know Sri chaitanya Mahaprabhu use to take some kind of mouth freshner after having meal etc? will you consider mahaprabhu “fallen” for this act? Do you know how Nityananda probhu used to live his life ? Do you dare to call him “fallen” ?Can sishya decide whether his guru is fallen or not? You should know that SVB was rejected by his guru due to SVB’s false propaganda about Mahaprabhu’s birth place.! There are many more stories about father-son ‘s false and fabrication of old vaishnab literature. A good sishya will never dare to judge his guru. This is against parampara. Try to revive your memory if you have ever read CC carefully what Mahaprabhu said When other gaudiyas made some allegations aginst Nityananda prabhu regarding his life style. How so ever successful he was and how so ever devotion, dedication and sincerity etc he had, to glorify sri chaitanya, his false and fabricated attempt to establish Mayapur as Mahaprabhu’s birth place instead of Nabadwip will be marked a black chapter in the history of Gaudiya vaishnab tradition. How many authentic sources of proof you need to satisfy that Mayapur is not Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s birth place? Who has told you there is no such authentic source to prove about the place where Mahaprabhu was born?

3. I can not remember when I have assumed Gaudiya Math started from Baladev . Just tell me how even after following so disciplined practice of bhakti , incidents you mention take place in ISKON temple?. Are the cases of child abuse , sexual abuse and other such crimes commited by ISKON people pending in courts of India and abroad all fabricated? I am not concerned with “your so called krishna premis” True krishna bhakta is always indifferent to the idea of rich, poor ,suffer, happy etc. I don’t understand how all souls are attracted to krishna equally ? Do you have any knowledge on the concept of sakhis and manjaris ? You always advise me to make comment after knowing the philosophy properly and not to copy paste web content.Here I shall feel happy if you are kind enough to explain the concept of sakhi’s and manjaris in full ? The Gaudiya Math has many divisions too.

4. Except a small group of people who owe allegiance to Gaudiya Math family has accepted Mayapur as mahaprabhu’s birth place .Outside your world everybody knows the truth. It is evedent that every controvery related to sri chaitanya’s gaudiya vaishnab dharma has started since SVB and his son sarawati established their Math/Mission. Before that there was no controversy . Nobody has ever heard of the names of nine islands before Narahari chakraborty’s bhakti ratnakar . I am giving the names and request you to locate places of such name in the documents of State Revenue office. These are Antardvipa, Simantadvipa,Godrumadvipa,Madhyadvipa,Koladvipa,Rtudvipa,Jahnudvipa, Modrumadvipa . Has anybody ever heard such names of places near Nabadwip/Nadia area ? I don’t know whether you have any knowledge of Bengal’s history .These places can be traced in the spiritual world of sri Narahari chakraborty. Similarly, the place Mayapur could not be traced in the revenue records before SVB appeared in the scene.SVB turns Minyapur into Mayapur using his administrative capacity.

[uttam]

In continuation to previous message.

5. Since the relation of mahaprabhu with madhva sampradaya has not been given any place in the writing of goswami before Bala dev. It is therefore evident that the goswami did not relate themselves with madhva sampradaya. The Gaudiya vaishnab philosophy has not been establised by Baladev Vidya Bhushan. The question is why those goswami has not mentioned that their siddhanta has its root in Madhva sampradaya if it was so . How this lineage has been propagated ,can be answered by those who has brought it. Gaudiya math has been successful in its mission not due to this issue so question does not arise to provide any evidence. Being impartial for a moment , can you think what basic siddhanta of gaudiya vaishnab philosopy is to be compromised to bring mahaprabhu into the madhva sampradaya ? is it possible for gaudiya vaishnab goswamis to compromise their basic siddhanta ? Please let me know from you the siddhanta which are common to both Madhva and Gaudiya . I would like to know why it is so necessary to get mahaprabhu linked to madhva sampradaya.Is it Only to get an entry in one of the so called authorised sampradaya or else ? who will answer this ? Regarding four vaishnab sampradaya, I asked you some questions to which you have not replied yet. Please tell me who has catagorised vaishnab into four sampradaya and when such category came into effect. I want to know who is behind this idea . Who for the first time did feel that mahaphabhu must have to belong to madhva sampradaya. The great gaudiya goswamis of Vrindaban or Nabadvipa of the age before Baladev Vidya Bhushan appeared did not feel it .Have you got any answer for me?

6. I don’t think you are OK These statements are not told by me. It is anirvan who has stated sishya sarted bhagavan completed etc. In respect of Gauranga followers , how many guru parampara you have recognised as acceped . one or more ? In chaitanya charitamrita adi lila, there are so many guru parampara given.I do not recognise any connection between Puri and Thirta. You should ask this question to those who have connected them both . The root of all the controversy is Gaudiya Math. My small attemt is to address all those controversy toward its logical end. I don’t want to become an expert in madhva philosophy. I want my involvement only in chaitany charitamrita.

7/8/9. sri chaitanya’s parampara has its own entity which is not from madhva . This entity of chaitanya parampara can be seen in Kabikarnapura’s ‘Gaur-gana-uddeshya-dipika’ and ‘ chaitanya chandrodoya Natak’.Collect and read . (The sloka 6-7) is “Acharyang yashya kando ………………iha bhuvane kaschan pradurasit.” For sri chaitanya, no sampradayaik parampara is required. He has his own sri chaitanya parampara having root in Madhavendra puri.although Madhavendra puri was a Dasanami sanyashi, but was bhaktibadi and no way related to Madhva.Before I establish my view, you have to answer my question as to who categorised vaishnab into four authorised sampradya and since when this categorisation came into effect. What is the need of giving name of the greaest goswami of vrindaban who is connected sri sampradaya. He might be some one like Baladev , who might have shifted his faith from sri sampradaya to Gaudiya as Baladev did from Brahma sampradaya. This vaishnab umbrella might have been created by the deserters only.

10. As per Hindu scriptures only five types of Mukthi are considered for spiritual journey. Other than these five ,I don’t know if there is any left. But the point is in no way Mukthi can be equated with attaing krishna prem . Mahaprabhu’s raganuga bhakti marg will lead to getting krishna prem only. How so ever high philosophy you add to describe mukthi. You can not equate it with krishna prem which is the sole aim of Mahaprabhu’s raganuga bhakti ,so Mukthi is rejected by Mahaprabhu. I shall not want to discuss the subject that is rejected by mahaprabhu.Out of the five bhavas, ( rasa) only madhur bhava is regarded as the highest.I think I have to discuss this issue separately.I maintain that since there are different bhavas , so also our nearness in terms of prema to sri krishna are different as per bhavas.and only through madhur bhava , we are at the nearest of sri krishna.

Lastly I want you to prove my thread wrong by giving acceptable arguments.

[uttam]

Dear grames,
I have shown the differences between Mahaprabhu’s Gaudiya vaishnab dharma and Madhv’s Brahma Sampradaya and claimed that due to so many basic differences like supremacy of sri krishna instead of vishnu, sri radha and gopi tattva and their prema, mukthi issue, suddha bhakti issue, varna-ashram dharma issue, madhurya-pradhan raganuga bhakti issue, achintya ved-aved tattva and many more and hence I do not accept the theory that Mahaprabhu belongs to Madhva sampradaya. Therefore, it is now your turn to prove me wrong. If you try to explain Madhv’s philosophy in the light of Mahaprabhu’ s theory, it will be a foolish attempt. So you have to explain Mahaprabhu’s Gaudiya siddhanta in the light of Madhv sampradaya ‘s theory. I just request you to give the similarities, I mean I like to know from you which Madhva siddhanta has been accepted by Mahaprabhu’s gaudiya vaishnab sampradaya for which you are claiming that Mahaprabhu belongs to Madhv’s Brahma sampradaya. I think one of the best way to prove me wrong is to verify the list of guru parampara kept in Udipi Math of Madhva sampradaya and trace any gaudiya vaishnab goswami or their guru’s name there in the list. To prove that Lakshmipathi Tirtha has any connection with the other two Puri , I request you to show the original guru parampara list kept in Udipi Math of Madhva sampradaya (with evidence to prove that the list has been obtained from udipi math because being member of gaudiya math people ,you have a inherited tendency to fabricate old ducuments). I believe you can do this very easily and prove me wrong.

[uttam]

Dear grames
I am expecting response from you. Please read these texts from CC also.

1. eka-matra angshi Krishna angsha –avatara : ADI LILA-6 CHAP
angshi angshe dekhi jyestha-kanistha achara
( Meaning : sri Krishna is the source of all incarnations and all others are his parts or partial incarnations. We find that the whole and part behave as superior and inferior)

2. jyestha- bhave angshite haye prabhu jnyana
Kanishtha-bhave apanate bhakta –abhiman
( Meaning : He has the emotions of a superior when he considers himself the master, and he has the emotions of an inferior when he considers himself a devotee)

3) krishne samye nahe tanra madhurya aswadana
Bhakta bhave kare tanra madhurya charvana
( Meaning : Madhurya of sri Krishna can not tasted by those who consider themselves equal to him. It is to be tasted only through the sentiment of servitude)

[grames]

Dear Uttam.,

Reading this thread after long and sorry for the disconnect...

After reading this message, i believe you went back to Square one. But i want to appreciate and acknowledge that your CC excerpts are very sublime and wonderful. Wish and expect you to understand the greatness of BVB, who in fact actually give you the meaning and understanding the subtle differences and difference in the attachment of various jiva to Krshna and thus having different degrees of Bhava. I think i have explained that already.

This is not what BVB was missing and the Poorna Anubhava of Krshna prema cannot be mere sentimental. This is a ridiculous position of new age so called vaishnavas where they strongly believe, Surrender to God means just a sentimental attachment. I do not think you are interested to know or understand the greatness of BVB as well as he being the link between Bhava school which needed the vedantic basis and with out which, it has no place in the Indian Vaishnava system.

With out the knowledge of TattvaVada, it will be offensive to read certain CC verses and do not just overrun such verses. Example of Shri being desirous of Krshna! With out BVB, there is no smooth rendition of CC and with out vaishnava principles from four sampradayas, Gaudiyas will have nothing to offer in a spiritual sweet manner to the followers. Do not ever forget that this fact is acknowledged by Shri Chaitanya Himself. (as He accepts principles from four sampradayas). You want your personal desire (ista) to be fulfilled for whatever reasons.. but i am giving utmost respect to this great devotee of Lord Shri BVB and i am sure we are never going to reconcile except stating our facts for faith.

For me, BVB is the crucial link and with out his seva for Shri Chaitanya, none of the sincere followers/devotees can understand Shri Chaitanya properly and there is no questions of any nivartti and forget about Bhava Vrttis.

Hare Krshna!

[grames]

Dear Uttam.,

Your first point is the point i am stressing for sometime...

Shri Mahaprabu does not belong to Any Sampradaya but He is the originator of all. ( You can never acknowledge this until unless you understand and have faith that Shri Mahaprabhu is Shri Krshna Himself). So, seeking some allegiance to any Parampara for Shri Mahaprabhu is not going to yield us any result. This allegiance to a vendantic prampara is not to make Shri Chaitanya authentic but to establish the truth that, what Shri Chaitanya taught is in fact Vedantic and authentic. I don't want to continue any further arguments on this line as i do not see any points coming from you in this regard.

For the second point, i am not sure if you have learnt everything that GV Math teaches and i would like to know what is that you have learnt and from whom. That will help me to discuss further with you whether your understanding and your background information has truth and also allow me and like minded to differentiate truth from lies. So, do state your position and mere accuse is not enough.

For the third point, Guru Lakshna and Daiva Lakshna are ocean different and with out proper learning and understanding you cannot make proper judgments. If Shri Chaitanya or Shri Nityananda did something, as an insignificant jiva you cannot immitate ( this is the reason why there are some followers branded as "imitators") and justify your actions. A fallen soul is fallen regardless of his status and the purpose behind such fall is not in my power to understand or explain. In KaliYug, the possibilities of Guru falling is not a surprise or shock and rejecting such fallen Guru is symptom of your sincerity towards Lord. ( If you want to argue on this again, this is my last point).

You are arguing like you were ruling the villages in the Chaitanya Era. You haven't provided any facts so far but just accusations just to let u know. Here is one research paper on the Mayapur being the birthplace. If you want to refute with facts, history and evidences.. you are most welcome..

http://gosai.com/writings/a-study-fo...yas-birthplace

Hare Krsna!

[grames]

Do you know what is Tattva Beda and RasaBeda?

I am not here to prove you wrong....

I am sharing what i know and understood and in my faith and belief, Shri Chaitanya's teaching is vedantic and not sure how is it for you. Shri Chaitanya can be explained only on the basis of four vaishnava sampradaya principles and otherwise, His teachings will be gross! Shri Madhva's Pancha Beda is so critical and crucial for the establishment of BhavaVrtti and you cannot build Bhava thought or practice with out the understanding of PanchaBeda. This is the connection and this is the foundation and if you are not able to grasp it, my dear Uttam, you can continue to follow what you follow. At the end of the day, i strongly believe it is our beloved Lord who gives us this "difference" in thoughts and this "difference" in understanding Him and upholding our "difference" as our nature is not a flaw.

Hare Krshna!