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Thread: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

  1. #11

    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Pranams,

    Although Jambavan is a bear, Jambavati was never described in the bhAgavatam as a bear, so the question does not arise.
    Oh, okay. She's just the human daughter of a talking bear. Gotchya. And, of course, when Krishnaji says things like, "Among fish, I am the shark," he means that literally, too. And, obviously, when the Bhagavatam says things like, "The sun is pulled by seven horses on a one-wheeled chariot through the sky, and we have divided the months according to the number of spokes on the wheel," we are meant to take that literally. After all, symbolism doesn't exist in the scriptures, so that must be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Raavana having 10 heads cannot be explained metaphorically because context does not support it. Vaalmiiki explicitly states that he revealed a ten-faced, twenty-armed form to Sita just prior to abducting her:

    sa.nrakta nayanaH shriimaan tapta kaa.ncana bhuuSaNaH |
    krodhena mahataa aaviSTo niila jiimuuta sannibhaH || 3-49-7
    dasha aasyo vi.mshati bhujo babhuuva kSaNadaa caraH |

    That celebrated Ravana whose eyes are bloodshot as he is ensorcelled by desperate fury transmuted his form into a ten-faced, twenty-armed night-walker wearing golden ornaments of purified gold and appearing as a black tempestuous cloud. [3-49-7, 8a]
    I've read the Valmiki Ramayan. I don't think this eliminates my earlier theory. Sita's vision of Ravana's true nature doesn't have to be him literally turning into this weird ten-headed, twenty-armed monster. I'm sure it was just Sita seeing how dangerous Ravana was and Valmiki went on to express it poetically, since he chose to express Ram-lila through a poem and symbolism is often used in poems.

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    There is also the fact that Raavana is traditionally understood to have literally 10 heads and this can been seen in art forms spanning centuries. Some are of the opinion that he only manifests all 10 heads at certain times such as in battle. But the point is, it is not traditionally understand as merely metaphor without literal basis.
    Oh, I forgot that there was no such thing as symbolism in iconography! Silly me!

  2. #12

    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Jay Radhe, Jaya Radhe

    Quote Originally Posted by JayaRadhe View Post
    However, I think that such things as Ravana having ten heads and ten arms are allegorical.
    Note of Caution: I saw this in the TV Serial RAvaN:

    Vishrava Muni, RAvaN's father, was a spiritual scientist. He invented a bead, 'maNi' that had fractals and many refracting, reflecting facets. He showed it to Kaikeshi, when she was pregnant with Ravan, Vibhishan and their 2 other siblings

    He decided to give this maNi to RAvaN ... or after he passed away, when Kaikeshi, Ravan's mother sensed danger-death for her son in battle, she gave him his father's secret maNi and asked him to wear it around the neck.

    This maNi, when rubbed and moved at an angle, would reflect image of his face and create 9 images. Thus the ten heads were 9 reflections and one real head.

    As a LeelA i.e. divine pastime, Shri Raam also stopped to think for a moment, which one is his real head.

    When Shri Raam, on unanimous opinion with the Rshis and all, finally released the bramhAstra on rAvaN, rAvaN reflected "Shri Raam is sending the bramhAstra on me? If i send one they will collide in mid-air, and it will cause major destruction. No I certainly do not want this." So he embraced his death.

    RavaN's mistake was his out-of-proportion ahaMkaar about his illusiory capability as a Raksha, thinking he is all-powerfull and can compete with Shiva and VishNu.
    He tried to uproot the entire Himalaya, and Shiva taught him the required lesson, but kept him going, till he finally met death at the hands of Shri Raam i.e. VishNu.
    (Unfortunately he was taught this attitude by the maternal grandfather - a daitya, who had planned the politics of getting Vishrava Muni to marry his daughter so that the heir will "fight and destroy VishNu" - ridiculous as that sounds, but this is how daityas and asurs think.)

    Anyways, that was more rAmAyaN than necessary.

    Coming back to the ten heads. Is there anything to learn from this allegorically as well? I am sure there is - such as the 10 vices, personalities, egos, or ambitions of RAvaN? I do not have any shAstra commentary on this though. It is just a thought.

    rAma rAmeti rAmeti rame rAme manorame
    sahastranAma tattulyam rAma nAma varanane

    Hare KrshNa~
    Last edited by smaranam; 31 July 2012 at 12:39 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  3. #13
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    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    The 'nine reflections' theory has been doing the rounds lately.I don't think it is supported by the ramayana though.If I recall correctly,some western scholar came up with it a few years ago, in a book that speculates on 'what actually happened which was later turned to myth etc. etc.'

    She was interviewed in Times of India.I remember reading the interview.There was a whole load of bs repeating the old pro babri masjid arguments too(funny how scholars of marxist persuation bring up the topic anytime the topic veers even remotely close to the ramayana)

    Sad that the quality of tv shows is getting so degraded.
    Last edited by Omkara; 31 July 2012 at 02:45 AM.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  4. #14

    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayaRadhe View Post
    And, of course, when Krishnaji says things like, "Among fish, I am the shark," he means that literally, too.
    Oh VibhUti Yog, my favorite GitA chapter.

    What He means is whatever stands out, is actually outstanding, shines out extraordinarily in its own category is Me as in - an instance, vibhUti, a spark of Me. In fact, when we say avatArs or expansions, there are shaktyAvesha (empowered beings) , aMsha (part) and vibhUti (beings or entities fueled by His spark - aMsh, vibhUti).

    vibhUti = manifestation of His spark.

    In the end KrshNa says

    BG 10.40: O mighty conqueror of enemies, there is no end to My divine manifestations. What I have spoken to you is but a mere indication of My infinite opulences.
    BG 10.41: Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor.
    BG 10.42: But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.
    And Who is His splendor? Lakshmi, Shri. The Godess of Fortune.

    Let's see off the top of my head:

    Among the 12 Aditya I am VishNu
    Among the 11 rUdra I am Shankar
    Among the achala, immovable I am Himalaya
    Among the mountains I am Meru
    Among the objects in the sky I am the moon
    Among the archers and governers of weapons I am Shri Raam
    Among the secrets I am the silence (maun)
    Among the hymns of sAma-ved I am bRhat-saama
    Among the daityas I am Prahlaad
    Among divine [vedic] rhythms (cHhanda) or poetry I am Gayatri

    I am nIti (righteous way) among seekers of victory,
    Among indrIya (sense organs) I am the mind
    I am shri-splendor, medha-intelligence, vANi-speech, kshamA-forgiveness [quality of], dRti-steadfastness, smRti-memory ...

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya~
    Last edited by smaranam; 31 July 2012 at 12:34 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  5. #15

    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    The 'nine reflections' theory has been doing the rounds lately.I don't think it is supported by the ramayana though.If I recall correctly,some western scholar came up with it a few years ago, in a book that speculates on 'what actually happened which was later turned to myth etc. etc.'

    She was interviewed in Times of India.I remember reading the interview.There was a who,e load of bs repeating the old pro babri masjid arguments too.

    Sad that the quality of tv shows is getting so degraded.
    That is why i wrote the Note of Caution about the TV Serial source. Now that you mention it the producer was some Khan.
    And the beginning part of the serial also tried to show Ravan in a positive light as if sending a message that our scriptures wrongly show him in bad light.

    Well, RAvaN had Yogic powers too. So how about this: when his ego could not fit in one head they expanded into 10 to make room for it Also, it helped him confuse the enemy in battle.
    Jaya Radhe, Let us not forget Ravan was one of the gatekeepers in VaikuNTha who had to complete three births here. So again, not an ordinary being. These are such trivial things for the Supreme Lord.

    hare KRshNa
    Last edited by smaranam; 31 July 2012 at 01:10 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #16

    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayaRadhe View Post
    Oh, okay. She's just the human daughter of a talking bear. Gotchya.
    If Hanuman, a vAnar can be a great Yogi and great devotee, why can't a wise bear Jambavan have a wise daughter who is a devotee at heart?

    Hanuman, Jambavan and Jambavati were no ordinary beings. They were the devotees of the Supreme Lord who were participating in His Leelas on earth.

    It is the AtmA inside that KRshNa looked at - always. He never said - this one is ugly.
    I also read that as soon as Shri KrshNa put the varmaalA around Jambavati she turned into a beautiful princess. This means she evolved, she overcame her material deha with spiritual, at the Supreme Lord's touch.

    We all agree that the 8 wives were liberated, and others who became KRshNa's wives immediately attained liberation. Anyone attains liberation at His touch.

    KrshNa wouldn't care even if she was a bear, He would love her dearly, but it would be too hard for the DwArakAvAsis to accept, and He did not want to shock anyone.

    Also, Saamb, JAmbavati's son, was very very dear, especially dear to KRshNa.


    Shri KrshNa Govinda Hare MurAre
    he NAtha NArAyaNa VAsudeva
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Pranam

    I take it Shatrarjun with thousand arm is a no then, I use to wonder how the hell would he use them, cloth it? But then I said how does sentapide have hundred of legs?
    I suppose a Bhakta will always wonder in amazement and marvel the creation, saying nothing is impossible for God. While jyani would want to rationalise everything. Personally I like to think the author would like us to believe in what he has narrated.

    On a different note, can anyone tell me if Ram is explicitly mentioned as an avtar of Vishnu in Valmiki Ramayan. I am more use to Tulsidas Ramayan the manas, although I have in my possession valmiki Ramayan, I have read it but I was not looking for that ref then, anyone with know shed some light on it please. Many thanks.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  8. #18
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    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam
    I suppose a Bhakta will always wonder in amazement and marvel the creation, saying nothing is impossible for God. While jyani would want to rationalise everything. Personally I like to think the author would like us to believe in what he has narrated.
    In my opinion, being a jnani or a bhakta should make no difference in believing in the itihasic history. None of the famous Vedanta acharyas had a problem believing in the itihasa and purana. The mistake is often made to equate being a jnani with western post enlightenment rationalising scepticism. I have seen a few very arrogant people who think they are on the path of jnana yoga, because they work with their mind, but this does not make one a jnani. These people would ridiculously believe they can do a Myers-Briggs personality test to find out whether they are a jnani or bhakta.

    The difference between jnana and bhakti is blown out of proportion in Neo-Hinduism. Most jnanis were also bhaktas as is evident from the literature of the Jnana yogis that is available to us and the vedas and shastras themselves where bhakti and jnana are beautifully blended. The influence of Buddhism has also helped to create a false dichotomy between jnana and bhakti, as is seen in literature that is highly influenced by Mahayana Buddhism, like the Yoga Vasishta. This might be a little off topic, but I wanted to comment on it, because I think this false dichotomy has been ingrained very deeply and has become a common misconception.

    On a different note, can anyone tell me if Ram is explicitly mentioned as an avtar of Vishnu in Valmiki Ramayan. I am more use to Tulsidas Ramayan the manas, although I have in my possession valmiki Ramayan, I have read it but I was not looking for that ref then, anyone with know shed some light on it please. Many thanks.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Yes, there are a few references in the Valmiki Ramayana saying that Rama is Vishnu, some are explicit and some inexplicit. I will look them up, or perhaps philosoraptor can deliver them faster.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 31 July 2012 at 07:31 AM.

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    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Pranam Sahasranama

    Point well taken thanks, I wait for the reference thanks again.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Ramayana- A Real historic narration?

    Namaste!

    I have a collection of various books on Sacred Texts, and writings regarding Hinduism and aspects of, stored in a fire-safe security storage. It’s a pretty large collection, some of it hard to get these days.

    In this collection, there are many “Versions” of the Ramayana, including of course the Tulsidas and Valmiki versions, the Adhyatma Ramayana, Ananda Ramayana, and so on. I believe I have at least five versions, as well as obscure versions, a couple of study versions on the Thai, Cambodian versions. I have a large collection of “commentaries” on the Ramayana, on aspects of Ram or Hanuman, from many authors old and new and saintly and “scholarly”. Brahmins and Gurus brought Ramayana all over the world, and while I do not have a copy of it I have been looking for a Chinese versions which I am pretty sure does exist and is not simply a “Buddhist rendition”.
    To make clear, I do not think all of these are “authorized”, but many have given me great joy.

    I am not big on using “shot gun” methods of “verse quotations”, as some can see that is not really my style, which probably speaks to some as being simple in my opinion, which probably I am, certainly I am simple to approach because as some of my friends say, “Mr. B, you are simple” (especially when they want to whip up a plate of food for me). But I was sort of considering pulling out some of these “books” just for reference so that I might start to quote some items from Sacred Texts and other commentaries, but then I am sort of hesitant.

    Actually, if I did start to pull out boxes of “books”, there would probably be some on the Forum who would want to behead me for torturing everyone, or even actually behead me for crimes against the entire world order. So generally, I torture others with stories and such instead.

    But I only mention the Ramayana part of the “collection” in that, now that I think of it – I do not recall that most of the “originals” in text came with “pictures” and “graphics” (sure, editions of the Ramayana printed today may include pictures and graphics, but I am talking about the “originals”, the real “original editions” --- and boy, would I like to get my hands on one of those palm leaf and other originals because they are priceless, even just one page!) ….

    So for example Ravan’s Ten Heads. I do not think any of the originals showed a picture of Ravana. Yes, I have seen very ancient stone carvings showing Ravana with 10 heads.

    I believe the Ramayana is history (yes, I know you are thinking – “here he goes again”). So I believe in 10 heads. But I am not sure what that would look like. I also believe that everything in the Ramayana not only is history, but has profound messages and even mystic messages and teachings for me and everyone else.

    So for example, a couple of times I sort of imagined meeting Ravana, and I am not saying “meditation on Him” or such, just some real consideration and kind of saying “Hi” to Him. To tell the truth, I know any personal ideation on these matters has no relevance or authority. But to also tell the truth, while I fully understand Ravana is a demon, there is a “gut” feeling in me that He is actually not as bad as some think.

    - Fantasy -

    In this imagined “meeting” with Him, I sort of found a situation where I pictured myself in very nice “room”, big, nice stone hall like building and reception, and like I am already there and on my knees with my (single) head bowed down. And Ravana is “right there” probably about 50 feet away, but I didn’t look right at Him. And then there is a voice, only one voice, saying something. But when a second voice came, from the same Him, the voice sounded different, and even talked to the first voice. And so on. And at one point, a confusion of voices from the same Him were talking at the same moment, and some were even giving orders to Rakshasa assistants in the hall. I did look up in this imagination, and I did see multiple looks back from the same Him, and even a mirror behind where it seems a “head” was talking from the back of “His heads” if you will.

    Now this was all fantasy and not a vision, that is the fact. But I do know, that exactly How Ravana looks, I have no idea, but also it may not be what some think.

    - End of Fantasy "Section" -

    In terms of “versions”, just to mention there are many Saivas who do not believe in Avatars at all. And now that I think about it, the word is used a lot in commentaries I have but I don’t recall that I actually read the word “avatar” in the most popular Sanskrit editions (translated for me, since I cannot read Sanskrit other than some words and such). So, maybe the “word avatar” is not used, or is it?

    So yes, to some who may have been commenting on my understanding that “Ram is a devotee of Shiva” – that is, and will be my firm understanding, any dissuasion from this by terms such as “making up theory” or throwing text quotes at me, or even vague statements such as “should not be allowed” and such really isn’t going to intimidate me to change.

    In fact, to shock some even more, or maybe raise the interest of some even more, here are some of the understandings taught to me, and no I won’t throw a bunch of quotes from Sacred Texts to back up these understandings (but don’t forget those boxes in the fire-safe storage, I may still want to torture everyone yet!):

    * Rama is a devotee of Shiva. He prayed to the Lingam, he worshipped the Lingam.

    * Hanuman is Shiva. In fact, many of the personalities in the Ramayana, including monkey and bear and heroes and others, were Devatas and Devi come down to Bhumi Mother Earth in different forms during those historical times.

    * Ravana is a “demon”, but He is also a devotee of Shiva. He did many evil things, but He is not entirely “evil”, and possessed great Royal powers and mystic powers. He is One, but He had a “problem” in that He was also “Many” competing powers within Himself. He is both to be considered an enemy, but also a higher intelligence than we are.

    * That there is more to this than just “avatar” in these histories. And that, we will find out more in the future.

    Hope that doesn’t make anyone mad at me!

    Om Namah Sivaya

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