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Thread: Does God Punish?

  1. #1
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    Does God Punish?

    Vannakam,

    Excuse me if this has already been posted, but I'm curious on the opinions. Is it god who punishes or is it the accruing of negative karma which leads to misfortune? I'm inclined to take the position of the latter as it is more a matter of responsibility for one's own actions as opposed to placing the blame on the supreme.

    As always I'm eager to hear others opinions.

    Namaste

  2. #2

    Re: Does God Punish?

    My understanding currently, and per my guru's understanding as well, is that no, God does not punish. God only deals with us through Mercy, not "wrath."

    This raises the question though: if all negative things come to us as a result of karma, how is it that God is sometimes depicted as violent? As in Kali cutting off the heads of various demons, or Rudra annihilating the universe.

    I suppose in the first case one might say that Kali is administering justice in appearance only, and that it is simply the delusion of ignorant persons that they are suffering what is actually an act of mercy: the destruction of the false ego. Likewise, one might say that God's "acts" of destruction are merely impersonal motions which stem invariably from natural law and should not be looked at as instances of "punishment" in that there is no motivation to punish, only to maintain the world's order, causality, and so on.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: Does God Punish?

    Vannakkam: Violent depictions are to be taken metaphorically, with the demons being lower emotions. Personally, I find it unfortunate that this isn't brought to light more clearly, as the western interpreters (and Hindus ourselves) have occasionally had a field day misinterpreting it.

    But it is what it is.

    God is benevolent. Suffering happens not only because of karma, but also as lessons on the path that enable the soul's progress along it.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Does God Punish?

    it is our own bad actions(karma) that causes suffering to other people which constitutes to negative karma results.

    If everyone is considered to be god, then yes, it is god who does the punishment.

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    Re: Does God Punish?

    Namaste.

    I wrote this elsewhere, in another thread:

    "My belief is that Lord Krishna neither condemns nor redeems. He tells us how to achieve Him."
    And to that belief I hold.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Does God Punish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric11235 View Post
    Is it god who punishes or is it the accruing of negative karma which leads to misfortune?
    It depends on what attributes you would like God to have. Does God know the future with 100% accuracy? Did God know even before Hitler was born that 6 million Jews would be slaughtered? If God knew that, did Hitler really have the choice of not slaughtering 6 million Jews?

    Now, things become more interesting to discuss if you believe God cannot have knowledge of the future. In that case, God cannot be accused of any misfortune that befalls us. It is pure unadulterated free will. In this case, [where God does not know the future with 100% accuracy], I am currently inclined to believe that God compensated the innocent Jews in some fashion. That is, if you are an innocent victim of a crime, it leads to better compensatory Karma. If you are a deserving victim of a crime, your Karmic load decreases appropriately as you have "paid" for past moral actions.

  7. #7
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    Re: Does God Punish?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Does God know the future with 100% accuracy?
    In Him (Isvara) the seed of omniscience has reached its utmost development which cannot be exceed. -
    Yoga Darśana of Pātajali muni. Chapter I, Samadhi Pada, sutra 25

    If one was intererested in this whole idea of omniscience, this HDF post may be of interest.
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...ht=omniscience

    praām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8

    Re: Does God Punish?

    Namaste Eric, All,

    How can God punish him/her self?

    Our desire creates the impression that we are being punished, that impression is karma; small eddies in the flow of time.

    Who, or, what perceives punishment?

    If God is not in Human form; does he still punish?
    Is not our notion of punishment derived from that human form. If with that form, we also see human characteristics; They are a reflection of our selves upon him.

    If punishment be defined as suffering with cause, can we not then say that; as is the nature of all forms of pain, it is a warning to stop doing some thing that is detrimental to our growth.

    We suffer due to the lack of recognition and rectification, of the cause of the suffering.

    We may perceive this as punishment.


    praNAma

    mana
    Last edited by Mana; 16 January 2012 at 02:05 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Does God Punish?

    Dear Vannakkam,

    Re: Is it god who punishes or is it the accruing of negative karma which leads to misfortune?

    Definitely BY CONVENTION it is only the karma which leads to the misfortune. But I wonder you should get over the these matters of misfortune, karma etc which are not a real one. Even the God is also Mayic. Only Brahman is truth. So as per me you should better progress forward. Sorry for any advances but this is what I sincerely feel.

  10. #10
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    Re: Does God Punish?

    namaste everyone.

    Some thoughts on the question: 'Does God punish?'

    • To understand the answer to this question in proper perspective, we might ask a similar question: 'Does the judge punish the criminal?'

    • Who actually punishes a criminal? The state? The laws of the state? The administrators of these laws? Or the criminal himself by the act of his crime?

    • Obviously, the judge only dispenses justice. In the same way, Ishvara--God, dispenses the fruits of our karma, which is why he is known as phala-dAta.

    • The punishment of locking up the criminal in a prison is to make him repent and reform him so he could turn over a new leaf after he is released from the prison.

    • The 'punishment' for us of being born in specific circumstances in life is thus a result of our janmAntara karma--karma of a former life, and this confinement is to enable us to reform ourselves so we turn over a new leaf in another life.

    • What about the victim in this scenario, who suffered materially/physically/mentally/fatefully? The state's administrative laws try to compensate him (either from the criminal or otherwise); where this compensation is inadequate, we try to seek a spiritual answer in the janmAntara karma of the victim himself.

    *****

    1. What about crimes of genocide committed by persons like Hitler?

    • What could be the answer to such extreme situations? If God is omniscient and knew about it beforehand, why did he allow it? Why did he create a person like Hitler in the first place? Do we have a perverted God here? If God is omnipotent, why did he not prevent the genocide? If God is omniscient, then that makes him the criminal as well as the victim!

    2. What about the puranic stories of God destroying demons en masse, staying divine or taking human avatar? Do we have an angry, revengeful and violent God here?

    While we can readily find an answer to our own sufferings and 'punishment' in our inviolable obligation to expend our karmic balance, we can only speculate the answer for the above two situations, depending on the religious traditions we subcribe to.

    Perhaps the best way to understand it all is to know about the divine lakShaNas--attributes.

    • God's divine attributes are two-fold: svarUpa lakShaNa--essential attributes, and tatasttha lakShaNa--manifest attributes. taittirIya upaniShad indicates what these two kinds of lakShaNas are:

    • In its svarUpa lakShaNa--essential qualities,

    सत्यं ज्ञानमनन्तं ब्रह्म ।

    satyaM jnAnam anantaM brahma |

    Brahman as the Transcendental Absolute is 'Real, Consciousness, Infinite'.

    • In its tatasttha lakShaNa--manifest attributes,

    यतो वा इमानि भूतानि जायन्ते ।
    येन जातानि जीवन्ति ।
    यत्प्रयन्त्यभिसंविशन्ति ।

    yato vA imAni bhUtAni jAyante |
    yena jAtAni jIvanti |
    yatprayantyabhisaMvishanti |


    Brahman is that from which all these beings take birth, that by which they live after being born, that towards which they move and into which they merge.

    • To understand the nature of tatasttha lakShaNa, two popular examples are given:

    01. A house might be indicated by such a statement as 'the house on whose compoud wall a crow is sitting now.'

    02. A river might be indicated by what lies behind 'those cluster of trees'.

    Since the house is otherwise unidenfiable and the river is not visible right now, we describe them using indicative objects that are not essentially part of them. Since we cannot know Brahman with our mind or senses, we seek to describe it with its manifest attributes that appear to make him saguNa--qualified.

    • Incidentally, saguNa brahman as manifest bhagavAn is usually spoken of with two sets of attributes:

    01. jnAnam--Omniscience, aishvaryam--Sovereignty, shakti--energy, balam--Strength, vIryam--Vigour/valour, tejas--Splendour.

    02. jnAnam--Omniscience, vairAgyam--Detachment, yashas--Fame, aishvaryam--Sovereignty, shrI--Glory, and dharma--Righteousness.

    Understanding the svarUpa and tatasttha lakShaNas of Brahman could throw more light on why everything that happens is described as his lIlA.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

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