Hindu Bashing

[Flowing Along]

Namaste MahaHrada, SM

Ahh... thats what youhave read? The german govt. ignore crimes they have not comitted? Shock Horror!Must be foul play of the adharmic, christian hindu hating western governments

This angry outburst puts words in to other people's message reply box .Butmeans very little otherwise.

Where have I used words such as you say I'd use [ Adarmic, anti-Hindu etcetc] or logic like " They did that, not me?"

No where.

Why no word on the idea on what I say in the beginning itself -the basic difference between religion-sanctionedevils and social evils the latter one that has been fought against well byHindu social reformers since a century -they dared to defy existing socialnorms at grave personal risk?

Narayana Guru, Ayya Vaikuntar, Subramania Bharathi.

Pls google about them and read.

No us Hindus, don'twant to hear about our shortcomings and barbarism that still go unchecked. Ifsomething is wrong there must be a white or a christian, sometimes sitting fewthousand miles away from the scene of crime, who is responsible.

If it is proved the perpetrators of these horrible crimes are Hindus to "uphold Hindusim or whatever ,what good Hinduwould justify this? I won’t. What makes you think I would? Where have I saidthese crimes have white, Christians behind them?

What I see here from both my brothers is an angry reaction that's all.

The same angry reaction you accuse someone of baselessly, without reading ,or thinking over their response.

Pls read this carefully.

I started my comment about the difference between religion sanctioned evils and social evils.

And gave as an example, pls note , an example , the German one where evenafter centuries it is hard for people to accept the wrongs of the past so as tomove on.

We choose to believe what our media says never mind they have been actingquite funny since 10 years , those Indian media watchers of any belief sytemknow this.

They throw around stories that'd put any fiction writer to shame and when itis proved wrong they never apologise or make amends.

THey arent accountable to anyone .We never show the same anger that I seehere in this response to me towards theirlack of ethics .


But if it is true , I won’t blame unconnected others for thisand will expect law to punish the perpetrators of the crime only.

I am making my stand very clear. The original poster laments the gory crimeas well as the labeling of a large religious group that doesn’t think as ablock. I go with that opinion

Hope you can see the logic this time.

By MH
"
"The "I am the victim" and ifanything is wrong "let´s blame someone else" game is what todayshindu society is fairly good at, and not only at the tribal level, on thepolitical, social, within hindu activism everywhere, just look at the recentquite well organised smear campaign or "witch hunt" of hindu groupsagainst western yoga and yogis , some people began throwing stones not only atWesterners but even at open minded formerly respected indian teachers likeIyengar.

The moral rule coming from those that identify themselves too loud as"true Hindus" in todays indian society seems to be at the moment: ifyou are not good at anything yourself and have no constructive ideas that wouldbe respected, you still have the option to trample down others to get on top.

Some hindus really know the magic formula of how to turn their allies toenemies and make enemies their friends.

The funny thing is first these people indulge in hard core smear campaignsagainst their friends and allies when they see the result is not toofriendly-surprise surprise ! and people don´t bother to throw more $ afterthem, they play the victim card as Rampuri baba did recently when uninvited".

Wrong .The Hindu society is not good atthis at all. They aren’t half good at listing out the injustices they suffer,as they are scared of tirades like these.

This is a lot of bashing, that is not atall relevant to the issue I point.
Plsread , I summarise.

1.Any social evil In India [ consideringthis sudden spate of witch hunt news is true] is blamed on Hinduism when anydecent Hindus would want the criminals punished. Even for arguments sake if we believepeople cry “ me victim, me victim” nosensible Govt. would/should bow down to their pressure tactics. No centralauthority /religious math would mess with the law of the land.

2. It is sometimes hard for Governments of developed nationsto think freely as we live in sensitive times.I wanted to point that out , if it is hard for developed nations, India is not a mature democracy yet and the Governing party is in power thanks to many smaller parties and this makes their job harder. but many Govts are making sincere efforts and we see the examples throughout History. The Western World has made great strides in protecting individual rights.. As an ordinaryHindu I am the first to applaud when I see this happening .Still a lot needs to be done.

Finally why all this self –loathing ?

3.What Hindu groups are holding candle light vigils topressure Govt in to not taking action on criminals because they are Hindu? Ifthey are, be upset with them .Pressurise Govt to deliver justice without bendingdown to religion groups if the situation comes to that.

I also mentioned about early “ interventions” with tribals ,apparently this doesn’t interest you enough to think or analyse why we see manysuch reports suddenly and why in these states ?


While one may choose not to see things from different angles but still one can try to see points raised by someone else without feeling the need to do a general lumping together of people in to some group as having some characteristics or habits. Try to see things case to case instead of saying " All these people are like this, or that "

[TTCUSM]

Fighting superstition can be a double edge sword. The reform movements also fought superstition, but to such an extent that they tried to discard the whole of Hinduism minus some agnihotra and japa.

When you refer to "reform movements", are you referring to Arya Samaj?
The Arya Samaj was founded in 1875 by Swami Dayananda Saraswati, and got rid of everything except for the agnihotra, which they perform twice a day.

The Brahmo Samaj tried to turn Hinduism into a carbon copy of Christianity. They got rid of everything except for a monotheistic creator god.

Personally, I think ISKCON is the best reform movement. They focus on the Bhagavad Gita, which advocates Karma Yoga (action). It is only through Karma Yoga that people can be lifted out of ignorance and poverty.

[MahaHrada]

Namaste MahaHrada, SM
Try to see things case to case instead of saying " All these people are like this, or that "

[/SIZE]

I stopped posting on this Forum since it is meant to positively represent Hinduism, with alll the aggresion hindus have towards unbiased statements especially from westerners, i cannot support this aim anymore, i have stopped posting here, now this thread was just too much. Even if something that obviously bad happens as cutting out the liver of an abducted child, the "lets blame others" game starts. Hmm lets try something new....what about blaming western scholars and western govts. and Christians? Please understand and forgive me that therefore i will not go into details to refute your long posting.

Only one thing you say "what kind of good hindu will justify that" concerning that i like to ask you:

Who decides who is a good hindu or not? Much what is todays norm of a "good hindu" was originally what the british advocated. Apparently not even 300 years ago but only 1860 ce it was the british raj that made the first law against narabali (human sacrifice) and sati before there where daily human sacrifces at shakta pithas at many places and up to several hundred at each occasion of Navararatri at important pithas like Kamakhya, less than 200 years ago.

A few years ago some pithadipathis of the shankara mutts were all in tears about changes to Hindu societal norms, that sati dowry and child marriage was to be abondend and this is just the tip of an iceberg of social injustice that is promoted from high seats of powerful institutions of Hindu dharma. Are these good hindus or not ? Can you decide that? Do you think the witch hunters think they are bad hindus? I discussed this topic in another newsgroup a few hindus said that these witches ,aghoris and vamacharis are dangerous and are dealt with in the correct way, people that have access to a computer and can obviously read and write wrote that, no tribals. Same reaction in an older thread on vamachara on this forum, respected posters of HDF were openly supporting the lynching of Vamacharis. No second thoughts here, Followers of advaita vedanta modern educated hindus, are they good hindus?

And if we read of abductions and child sacrifices by local "tantrics" can we say there appears to be indeed "something" that has to be dealt with, or am i wrong?

This year it was the first time ever in the history of the sringeri mutt that a non dvija was given opportunity to study in sringeri mutt and this long overdue act will shurely not be replicated, but only used as an excuse how liberal the orthodox institutions have become, though nonetheless it should be applauded. What is a good hindu here? Are they bad Hindus because they allow Non dvijas to study the vedas? Or good? There will be at least two opinions about that. Apparently there are so many deep seated problem in Hinduism today that nobody wants to face, that causes Hindus to go and almost instinctively blame others most of the time foreigners, of being anti-hindu when there is anything else but uniform laudatory praise of the superiority of the special kind of the only true sanathana dharma they profess to belive in. And it matters little if your opponents belive in burning witches, or the kundalini yoga of latest scandalous sex swami Nitty or in the authority of the orthodox mutts, they are always the true good hindus" the others especially the westerner always the "anti hindu".
I personally am fed up by this attitude.

[Flowing Along]

Namaste MH

Istopped posting on this Forum since it is meant to positively representHinduism, with alll the aggresion hindus have towards westerners i cannotsupport this aim anymore, i have stopped postinghere , now this thread was justtoo much. Please understand and forgive me that i will not go into details torefute your long posting.

Only one thing you say "what kind of good hindu will justify that"

Who decides who is a good hindu or not? Much what is todays norm of a"good hindu" was originally british. Apparently not even 300 yearsago but only 1860 ce it was the british raj that made the first law againstnarabali and sati before there where daily human sacrifces at shakta pithas atmany places and up to several hundred at each occasion of Navararatri atimportant pithas like Kamakhya, less than 100 years ago.

Thought inadvertently I had triggered some issues here .I was right.Wemay well be talking on two completely different frequencies. Yet, I’ll do mybest to answer these issues raised by you.

1. I am new but imho yes, this forum is meant to represent Hinduism positively but I am sure NOT at the cost of truth or justice.

I am very sure most members here are open -minded enough to admit the ills plaguing their society BECAUSE they are like me, want to make things healthy for everyone. No one wants brushing bad stuff under heavy carpets.

One thing this forum isn’t for is to negatively represent Hinduism for the sake of doing so. We have our popular media for that job,thanks.

“A good Hindu” isn’t someone who’d think as part of a big group , instead he usesor should use his conscience to decide between right and wrong. And to uphold Dharma as best as he can without hurting anyone.

Ifhe has to pull up his own brother for the wrong doing done to some body else he’ddo it .
Tribals or English speaking, all Hindus know they are personally responsiblefor their moksha so NO “Think as part of a group and suspend your critical thinking NOW!”

If you think the colonizers reformed the “savages” , sorry, nothing I say will ever reach you .Still to complete what I started and for anyone who may be reading this later…

2, Regarding stuff like hundreds of narabali, please read what Swami Vivekananda says about...false propaganda.


“A few years ago some pithadipathis ofthe shankara mutts were all in tears that sati and child marriage was abondendand this is just the tip of an iceberg of social injustice that is promotedfrom high seats of powefful institutions of Hindu dharma. Are they good hindusor not ? Can you decide that? Do you think the witch hunters think they are badhindus? I discused this topic in another newsgroup a few hindus said that thesewitches aghoris and vamacharis are dangerous and are dealt with in the correctway, people that have access to a computer and can obviously read and write wrotethat, no tribals. Same reaction in an older thread on vamachara on this forum,respected posters of HDF were openly supporting the lynching of Vamacharis.”

The former head of the Kanchi math explicitly stated that [ though he was for marrying offgirls at an young age] , “ Adhere to the rule of the land, if they say 18 is the bare minimum , pls don’t delay the marriage of your daughters well beyond for the income they may bring.”

Sati?More negative propaganda than truth .One, it was an exception rather than a rule. It was a woman’s choice. If in later cases this was forced , this was a case of evil minds hiding behind scriptures twisting them as they wished.

I have heard nonsense that state the original Sati herself did so as Siva harassed her! It is about atma-nivedhan and the adyatmik meanings are many for that account.But if one doesn’t want to hear of it they’d interpret stuff their own way whichmay be a very wrong way. But a Hindu simply puts forwards arguments, in thehope that everyone believes in the good rules of arguments. Have patience, will use.

And you may know Sankara maths are not any kind of central Hindu authority, no math is.We can all live , co exist , not necessarily need to be controlled by one HUGE central power. That means absolute power andwe know what it does.

As for Vamachara or aghoris, no general lumping will get us near the truth again.

Please read Dr. David Frawley’s thoughts on this. He is a Westerner too, but I am looking at what he says .His background doesn’t bother me at all.

Tantra is a valid part of Hinduism, contrary to what people may think. People can getpowers if they practice this art and Science the way it should be but if theymisuse it to harm others or take money for helping people even , the doubleedged sword cuts them .i.e. they get punished by their own deeds. I ve seenthis happen to a man who misused tantra. In cases like these cause and effectmay work faster than usual but...

…But,BUT, a normal, "good Hindu" feels the people who misuse tantra [ pls note :no general lumping as tantrics] should still be punished by the law of the land.Plain and simple. So what if he is a puja –doing Hindu? He harms people.He shouldbe punished. No falling back on some math or other no show of strength in a big city ,well shown by TV.

The reality a Hindu believes in doesn’t take sides.

You use mantra/tantra for helping people , you prosper, you harm people, yousuffer. No matter who you are.


And if we read of abductions and childsacrifices by local "tantrics" can we say there appears to be indeed"something" that has to be dealt with, or am i wrong?



Yes, there is crime to be dealt with verystrictly if proved true and it should be . If you are talking about that you are not wrong.


This year it was the first time ever in the history of the sringeri mutt that anon dvija was given opportunity to study in sringeri mutt and this long overdueact will shurely not be replicated, but only used as an excuse how liberal theorthodox institutions have become, though nonetheless it should be applauded,apparently there are so many deep seated problem in Hinduism today that nobodywants to face, that causes Hindus to go and almost instinctively blame othersmost of the time foreigners, of being anti-hindu.

I heard about the Sringeri math’s recent decision –no, it may be replicated ,this is no PR stunt. Hindu maths have been evolving just like the path itself,in the absence of divisive politics /meddling politicians [ pls note: this is truly desi ! No one is blaming the West ‘] good changes will happen in time.

“So many deep seated problems”-as I said there is no group think, there is no one HUGE power center, and in the absence of any meddling by some divisive political parties any problems/disease that are there can be cured very soon . This fact itself may bother some.

"I personally am fed up by this attitude."

Please dont be as this problem doesn't exist here, may be elsewhere, but not here for the reasons I explained above as best i could.

Pranams

[TTCUSM]

MH,

You mentioned sacrifices taking place at the Kalighat temple.
Last year, I discovered that it was simply a myth, and no actual sacrifices took place. Please see this thread.

[MahaHrada]

If you think that practices that where opposed to the moral of the british like child marriage, Sati, Narabali, Self mutilations, Bharat Natyam, erotic chakrapuja and self-sacrifices, ritual suicides like jala samadhi, body mutilations by tapas etc. are only due to propaganda and were not and partly still are widespread and a normal part of Indian societal norms during and before the colonial times and even now in some places you are mistaken.

It was for instance 1956 when the head of sringeri math took jala samadhi, a lot of the other stuff is still quite common like sadhus that mutilate their bodies crush their sexual organs to a pulp etc. but Hindus are concerned about the "misuse" of Yoga and start a campaign when western woman are practising yoga to get a sexy butt, but think it is just fine when in traditional Yoga orders like the Naga Babas a lot of young men smash their genitals to a pulp when they get Sannyas diksha.

I am not against all these practices probably much less than you are, people can do what they like as long they hurt no one innocent, but what is sick is to constantly blame western scholars,journalists, govts. yogis or tantrics of "misusing" and misunderstanding and demeaning Hinduism at every step on the way while indian sadhus can crush their genitals, bury their head in the sand while standing upside down drill holes in their bodies to insert oil and burn as living lamps, tow cars with their penis, hold their arms up for 12 years until they are atrophied and all this is no misuse of Yoga, no not all, you must be an anti hindu to think that, no, this is sacred, but if a western lady does Yoga to get a healthy and _ ohh shock ohh horror- sexy body the professional "Hindu activist" talks about selfish misuse blasphemy and appropriation of ancient Yogadarshana. Even being immune to large doses of alcohol has just been declared in this forum in all earnest, as a Siddhi and Miracle of the Aghori Yogi. Well that all alcoholics can drink massive amounts of alcohol, and ingest doses other people would die from, does not even occur as a more plausible explanation to our happy converts. Welcome in Lalaland

[Sahasranama]

So you want HAF to tell western yogis to smash their genitals?

[MahaHrada]

So you want HAF to tell western yogis to smash their genitals?

Who started that campaign? i think rajiv malhotra pet disciple and main defender of sexy nitty, our viagrahamsa do they really know what a true Sannyassin has too do with his genitals?

I am only asking why do these type of hindu activists think they can attack their longstanding friends and supporters in the west and hope to get away with this?

[JaiMaaDurga]

Namaste,

Pardon me for butting back in to this thread, but I did want to address the reason for my starting it in the first place. It certainly was not in a mind of "let's blame others" for the horrific act of abducting and murdering a child that I posted this in the first place, and there is nothing objectionable to me about shedding as much light as possible on acts that are vile and shameful... the point of posting was to examine the motives behind the wording, promotion, and intended reception of such articles. It need not be a vast, conscious conspiracy; but does this mean that unconscious superiority complexes do not exist? Perhaps this older example will better illustrate:


I am not trying to increase controversy or fan any flames, but I did not want to be misconstrued as to my meaning; if this thread is proving a detriment to HDF, by all means remove it.

JAI MATA DI

[charitra]

" But many cases go unreported in remote areas of Bihar, an eastern state where the Ho and Santhal tribes live. These clans lived for centuries in deep forests, surviving on its produce and taking little from the outside world. They hunt with bows, worship nature and swear loyalty to the village headman."

Hmmm they certainly dont sound like hindus, do they? If they dont want to change their ways wih the changing times what options do we responsible citizens have? Send the social workers and remove kids from those ghettos which is what happens in civilized world ? I think so. Waco, Texas and Branch Davidian massacre comes to mind. Another important thing. The seven sister states in northeast have been successfully evangelized in case some of you are not aware of it. The majority are not hindus, they are christians, mostly baptists and Protestants. More crosses are seen there than Oms. The MPs are christians by faith, Miss Sangma is one such big name from those states.. All hindu festivals are banned in Manipur, Mizoram,Tripura etc. The 'separatists hold a Kalashnikov in one hand a Bible in the other'. Before someone gets tempted to get noisy, please understand I rerad this in Guardian sometime last year and the reporter was an Englishman who spent a few days visiting the areas.. Hindus as always didnt intervene and now live in fear there. Only Army can live without any fear in those remote parts of the nation.Namaste.