Arjuna's dilemma

[satay]

namaskar,

I am wondering about the conversation between arjuna and lord krishna. Reading chapter 2, Krishna tells him that just like this self moves from young to old age and then finally the body dies it moves on to another body, is eternal, can't kill it, don't grieve etc.

Okay, I somewhat understand that, self is eternal so when a loved one dies we should not grieve. But what about the lost relationship with that person for that lifetime? What about the lost memories?

Why didn't arjuna ask, 'but lord, when I kill my great great granddad and my own guru what about the relation I had with them all these years? How will I cope with their absence, the relationship that will be absent between me and them? Yes, I understand that their core will live on in another body but that body will have no relation with me, this arjuna that is sitting in front of you, now. What about that?

Curious.

[Jainarayan]

Namaste satay.

My wild guess is that it all comes under the heading of Attachment, which is a stumbling block to spiritual progress, and must be overcome. Just my guess.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~

namasté

satay writes,

Why didn't arjuna ask, 'but lord, when I kill my great great granddad and my own guru what about the relation I had with them all these years? How will I cope with their absence, the relationship that will be absent between me and them? Yes, I understand that their core will live on in another body but that body will have no relation with me, this arjuna that is sitting in front of you, now. What about that?

Much can be said about this. Here is how I view it.

First we realize the essence of anything. When a thing ( being person , place or thing) cannot exist without a particular characteristic , that characteristic comes to be its very nature or svarūpa¹. Let's take an example.

Take a tree. We see all the branches, flowers, bark, all that makes a tree to us, yet what is its essence ? The sap. The colorless sap that expresses itself in every part of the tree. Now we take the human form... what is its essence? Some would say the mind, the intellect, etc. Yes, all this is the march to a more subtler level, a more refined essence, and we arrive at ātman some like to call Self. So , what kṛṣṇa-jī first wishes to bring out is what is Reality, what is the essence of all of arjun's relations, guru's and friends? It is this ātman, which cannot be stained, killed, or destroyed. Why then arjun would you grieve ?

Now , of all the qualities of these friends and family. The complete field of creation is the play-and-display Of the 3 guna-s. The relations we have are of this dynamic. And the quality of the 3 guna's: Things come and go. If we we know this, Why then arjun would you grieve ?

It is important to note that one's family and friends are not diminished because it is the play of the 3 guna-s. But like every thing, if it has a birth it must have a death, it comes and goes. That said, there is a deeper appreciation of humans, family, friends within the tattva or tattvāni ( categories). The culmination of all the tattva's ( 36 in kaśmir śaivism , 25 in śāṁkhya) ends up in pṛthivi (earth) tattva.

We are of this form - we are all the tattva's added up, and what we ~see~ is this solid/earth-pṛthivi tattva. This pṛthivi tattva it divine - it is the work of śakti . Bundles of energy one layer upon another. It is divine. Many talk of the material world and look at it with a jaundiced eye, yet it is divine when one's eyes and knowledge are clear.
So , one sees the essence of all things as the Supreme Self, ātman; and with the culturing of the person even all of the creation ( solid/earth-pṛthivi tattva) is viewed as divine. One characteristic is of the Supreme Self is unchanging, stainless, infinite; and that of creation in which this body resides is divine, yet its qualities is ever changing, transforming, comes and goes. together they make up Reality as the total fullness (pūrṇa).

So, for arjun's 'teaching' from kṛṣṇa-jī in the bhāgavad gītā and the lessons in the mahābhārata it is the totality of Reality, that of non-changing and ever-changing. Our family and friends reside within this realm.

praṇām

1. svarūpa , character , nature ; own condition , peculiarity

[NayaSurya]

This conversation remind me of a game I would play in first grade.

Sixty children and an enormous, brightly colored, parachute. Each child would take a spot upon a color on the parachute and they would hold on to it as they raised it, over and over again... high into the air. Eventually, when it had enough momentum, the air would catch up under this parachute and thrust it up high into the air.

Once up so high, they let go and ran in every direction as the parachute began to slowly fall. Taking up a new color across the other side they would begin again!

And not one of them had changed... Only the position they took up along the edge and our individual perspective of this joyful game had changed.

...and somewhere underneath....one child had stopped playing altogether...she had taken up residence in the center under the canopy.

Laying upon her back, she listened to the wonderful laughter as those Portions continued to play. As the parachute descended, she did not move as those others scrambled to avoid her...some jumping over her...some running right into her.

But, nothing disturbed that Bliss.

Life time upon life time, layer upon layer we play...each Eye, as Beloved as the next<3

[satay]

namaskar,

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~

namast�

But like every thing, if it has a birth it must have a death, it comes and goes.


So , one sees the essence of all things as the Supreme Self, ātman; and with the culturing of the person even all of the creation ( solid/earth-pṛthivi tattva) is viewed as divine. One characteristic is of the Supreme Self is unchanging, stainless, infinite; and that of creation in which this body resides is divine, yet its qualities is ever changing, transforming, comes and goes. together they make up Reality as the total fullness (pūrṇa).

So, for arjun's 'teaching' from kṛṣṇa-jī in the bhāgavad gītā and the lessons in the mahābhārata it is the totality of Reality, that of non-changing and ever-changing. Our family and friends reside within this realm.

praṇām

Thanks Yajvan. I think I follow.

[Friend from the West]

Hari Om

Namaste,

With what is said in thread, find Sanatana Dharma. With with this, find so much peace. Perhaps not asked so well, but even with the higher peace and solace that comes with our understanding of things, the subordinate issue, of missing this prescence, arises. What of the missing of the interaction, the holding, the listening, the direct sharing? Had so many thoughts to write when saw thread and now, do not know. Am I being greedy that we are given so much with the higher peace of when loved one crosses over and am asking too much for remedy of the missing/hurting component?

I hope this makes sense and if I am missing something elementary, please correct.

Om Shanti

FFTW

[NayaSurya]

When my Father died New Year's Eve there was such a dichotomy of emotion from me and I will tell you that the first was overwhelming excitement for him. Just think! This next life, he won't be set on fire...and he won't be tortured...and he will have a wonderful mother and father who love him, cherish him...and omgosh, at that moment, with all the possibilities before him...in a brand new day which was dawning and I cried my heart out.

Because I wanted him to share this realm with me...this now.

But, his time was up...and I do my best not to be sad for myself that we couldn't have shared a moment more.

I think it's only normal to be sad such things will not happen with this you, you are now...and the he, he was now. But, it only takes a moment before I am back to praying...praying for that wonderful mother and father...and a life full of Love. That is my greatest wish for him now.

It's not greedy to miss them, they left this realm. All the hopes and dreams of time together go out the window. But, it certainly does help to know such a bright dawn awaits him...in another time, another place...another chance to get things right.<3

[Friend from the West]

Hari OM

Namaste

Satay, I hope my inquiry did not divert your intent of your posting. All responses for me, led and served as reminder as well.

Thank you each and many blessings to you.

Jai Jai Hanuman!

Om Shanti

FFTW

[rku]

@satay,

Just as the Body, feelings are also part of Maya. Just as the body dies so should be the feelings we are attached with. This is what Krishna expects Arjuna to understand. Just understanding the Maya may lead us to the nature of the Brahman. I think Krishna tries it in different ways with the Arjuna. This is my view and is far more sufficient to remove the doubts according to me. What do you think?

[Kismet]

So, for arjun's 'teaching' from kṛṣṇa-jī in the bhāgavad gītā and the lessons in the mahābhārata it is the totality of Reality, that of non-changing and ever-changing. Our family and friends reside within this realm.

This is my understanding too. At the end of time, when "All is well" to quote a great mystic, Reality will be put to rights so to speak. There will be no loss because all the elements in the past which we thought were irreconcilable with history's march are brought back together into one piece. Or, to put it another way, all the separate fractal specks we see in this life, are collected under one universal header that, nonetheless, preserves those aspects, like a fractal. Relationships, loves, identifications, are all brought together as One synthetic identification in Plenary, Omni-maximal Love and Union.

...oh I could go on and on about this. Suffice it to say, all streams will eventually merge as One. (This does not in my view mean absolute dissolution of personal identity, however).