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Thread: Kali Shakti Question

  1. #21
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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté



    Yes, what you say makes sense... the point I wished to offer was the notion of only seeing the flesh and nothing else. Then one is subordinated to paśuka.

    If one spends some time studying & looking to the 29th chapter of the trantrāloka ( that of kula) it points to the subtler and richer meaning of physical union; yet this ~union~ is not based upon the rank-and-file.


    You mention svāmī lakṣman-jū . He teaches that all contacts with the senses are by nature ~sexual~, perhaps a better word is sensuous. There is a union of the physical with the non-physical and joy can come from this.


    We can go deeper¹ into this if there is interest.

    praṇām

    1. Going deeper into this, we will need to move to the uttara folder as the concepts are much more robust, and
    a bit more esoteric.
    There are no teaching about a difference between the physical and non-physical in Kaula Dharma, there is only advaitam. All this universe is nothing but shiva. All means exactly that "all" . There is no Maya as understood in Advaita Vedanta which became somehow the cause for materiality and impurity. It is not possible to adhere to concepts of tantra and Advaita Vedanta at the same time. These are mutually exclusive philosophies and path. Either a woman is pregnant or she is not there is no woman that is half way pregnant. Either one can take the step and accept everything as divine including what appears as impure or one cannot do that.Kaulachara is the highest path, there are many that are lower and accept the idea that there is the fleshy or physical or impure and things that have to be avoided. One can follow any path as one wishes but one cannot accept two paths at the same time that are mutually exclusive and hope to progress.

    It depends on what we are able to understand, that path is what we must choose, the impure does not exist outside of our limited self. If you see something fleshy or a rock instead of a diamond you are ultimately only unaware of the true nature of the universe.
    Concepts of Impurity, the fleshy, the rock as opposed to the diamond are errors of perception that soley exists inside a limited worldly mind and if one sticks to these concepts it require a worldly path.
    The worldly person looks around and only sees the duality he does not see the "diamond quality" of all that exists.
    We experience the universe by means of our sense organs, which are divinities. This is simple and straightforward. Swami does not say there are physical organs and there are non physical organs.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 21 January 2012 at 12:16 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté



    Yes, what you say makes sense... the point I wished to offer was the notion of only seeing the flesh and nothing else. Then one is subordinated to paśuka.

    If one spends some time studying & looking to the 29th chapter of the trantrāloka ( that of kula) it points to the subtler and richer meaning of physical union; yet this ~union~ is not based upon the rank-and-file.


    You mention svāmī lakṣman-jū . He teaches that all contacts with the senses are by nature ~sexual~, perhaps a better word is sensuous. There is a union of the physical with the non-physical and joy can come from this.


    We can go deeper¹ into this if there is interest.

    praṇām

    1. Going deeper into this, we will need to move to the uttara folder as the concepts are much more robust, and
    a bit more esoteric.
    There are no teaching about a difference between the physical and non-physical in Kaula Dharma, or kashmir shaivaism, there is only advaitam. All this universe is nothing but shiva. All means exactly that "all" . There is no Maya as understood in Advaita Vedanta which became somehow the cause for materiality and impurity. It is not possible to adhere to concepts of tantra and Advaita Vedanta at the same time. These are mutually exclusive philosophies and path. Either a woman is pregnant or she is not there is no woman that is half way pregnant. Either one can take the step and accept everything as divine including what appears as impure or one cannot do that.
    Kaulachara is the highest path, there are many that are lower and accept the idea that there is the fleshy or physical or impure.
    One can follow any path as one wishes but one cannot accept two paths at the same time that are mutually exclusive.

    It depends on what we are able to understand, that path is what we must choose, the impure does not exist outside of our limited self. If you see something fleshy or a rock instead of a diamond you are ultimately only unaware of the true nature of the universe.
    Concepts of Impurity, the fleshy, the rock as opposed to the diamond are errors of perception that soley exists inside a limited worldly mind and require a worldly path.
    The worldly person looks around and only sees the duality, he does not see the "diamond quality" of all that exists.

    We experience the universe by means of our sense organs, which are divinities. We have to give them tarpana that means satisfy them and they will grace us in return with joy. This is simple and straightforward. Swami does not say there are physical organs and there are non physical organs or physical joy or non physical. It is the central message of all tantric paths that there exists nothing whatsoever that is not divine, that message is not armchair philosophy as sm liked to call it but it needs to be practised for example by erasing dualistic concepts such as rock-diamond/ only physical-non physical sexual act/divine union from the mind. Only if this practical work is done under supervison and blessing of a Guru, then understanding of the other concepts may occur.

    swami says:
    "these delicious things are not meant for worldly people who will waste it"

    How will they waste these delicous things? By being unaware that these "fleshy physical tastes" are Parabhairava, they will not see the reality.
    But then they should at least thank god that they can taste these joys says swami, but these people don´t do that, instead they curse these "rasas" or tastes. And illogical as it may seem the highest of the "tastes" the most divine is the subject of the worst curses.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 21 January 2012 at 08:41 AM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    There are no teaching about a difference between the physical and non-physical in Kaula Dharma, or kashmir shaivaism, there is only advaitam.
    I respect what you offer, yet my point was not from parā but from the point of view of aparā. Here there is diversity for the viewer, for the pāsu. It is from here this string was initially oriented. Hense comparing and contrasting different notions.

    You mention all is śiva - of this I have no doubt. If we look to abhinavagupta's work parā-trīśikā vivaraṇa, he offers the following: yatsattatparamārthohi paramārthastataḥ śivaḥ

    That which is Existence (sattā) is the highest (param) Reality, the Universe is of the nature of that Reality, therefore everything is śivaḥ

    I will let these ideas rest for another time. Thank you for your input.

    praṇām






    Last edited by yajvan; 22 January 2012 at 03:32 PM. Reason: spelling edit
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #24
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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~


    namasté

    I respect what you offer, yet my point was not from parā but from the point of view of āpara. Here there is diversity for the viewer, for the pāsu.
    I will let these ideas rest for another time. Thank you for your input.

    praṇām


    Namaste Yajvan, thanks for this exchange
    Yes exactly it is apara or nigraha shakt, the limiting influence, that makes us think in terms of these dualities like impure pure, dharma adharma etc., what is good to do and what has to be avoided, and anugraha or Para shakti the grace that relives us from this bondage.
    Thats why i suggest to not re-enforce these limiting and binding concepts of the pashu bhava, but trust in the releasing grace of the Guru and the Anugraha shakti and dare the practical step towards this advaitam, not grasping and holding on to limiting (nigraha, apara) concepts but by accepting sense enjoyment as divine move above delusions.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 21 January 2012 at 12:24 PM.

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