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Thread: Kali Shakti Question

  1. #11
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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post
    Namaste TBTL, Unwittingly you have allowed yourself led into The Leela (illusion).

    It is the classical murthis displayed in Mandirs that count, and they typically represent Hinduism. What one draws in ones own bedroom or or what one writes in poetry or drama or what a nut does in a cremation ground with white paint on his body is everything to do with his/her own personal deluded take on life and faith and it serves only one purpose for us - humor value, bereft of any spiritual substance. .
    Excellent, that is a brillant comment, You are so right. Kama is much more than merely an erotic urge. All Rasas proceed from the desire. Kama takes many forms, like dharma kama (passion for virtue) artha-kama (desire for wealth) and moksha-kama (desire for liberation).

    Desire is the main driving force of the universe, and one has to take a yogic approach to all actions, and emotions, as an offering to the Divine.

    And most certainly we should learn from what is depicted in the mandirs. For instance Tripura Sundari the same Shodasi or Lalita, is also Kamakshi "She whose eyes awaken desire," or "She who has beautiful eyes."

    This attraction of divine beauty creates the most sublime desire of union with the Divine. The goddess Tripura Sundari in her aspect as Shodasi is represented as a sixteen-year-old girl, and embodies sixteen types of desire.

    Good that we got such a great help, without you we would be lost, deluded by the lala and the tantra of the bedroom of the Raja. And of course we should not forget the danger of the rasa of the white painted bogey man in the ice-cremation parlour.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 20 January 2012 at 01:14 PM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post
    Namaste TBTL, Unwittingly you have allowed yourself led into The Leela (illusion).

    It is the classical murthis displayed in Mandirs that count, and they typically represent Hinduism. What one draws in ones own bedroom or or what one writes in poetry or drama or what a nut does in a cremation ground with white paint on his body is everything to do with his/her own personal deluded take on life and faith and it serves only one purpose for us - humor value, bereft of any spiritual substance. .
    I don't understand what you're saying. Are we to discount the stories and mythologies as having lessons in there somewhere, though we may not take them literally? Aren't we all part of lila? Isn't creation the recreation of God, as Shankara pointed out?

    If "what a nut does in a cremation ground with white paint on his body" brings him closer to his God, who is to judge him wrong? Is Hinduism not varied enough to allow for many different beliefs, approaches and practices? I'm just not understanding your response.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast


    If you see the Divine in sexual congress and think that is what they are depicting, then you have mistaken a rock for a diamond.

    What they offer us is that of the co-mingling of the pure absolute (śiva) with that permeating all of creation (śakti) ; the Supreme is co-mingled with all of creation, all of the energy (śakti) that makes up creation.

    It is by this co-mingling, that all of creation manifests. In kaśmiri śaivism it is considered spanda, a throb, a vibration, a stir in the Absolute level of Being. My teacher called it Creative Intelligence ( śakti + śiva); its very nature is to create expand, diversify, unfold.

    The wise are teaching us via symbols , inferences, ideas.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Thank you all for the responses, they have been very illuminating. I am glad to see that my thoughts are not totally outside the norm, even as I try to pin down exactly what those thoughts are.

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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=3]If you see the Divine in sexual congressthen... you have mistaken a rock for a diamond

    The other way around it makes more sense. If one is a spiritual evolved person one can see the divine everywhere, especially in sringara rasa since it is the highest most refinend of the rasas. A deluded person can see the divine nowhere, not even in the most refinend emotion.

    If one cannot see the divine in sexual contact it is because one is a pashu a person deluded and bonded by desire.

    A Kaula Yogi experiences the divine everywhere, for him there is no difference between the pure and the impure, unlike the worldly person who differentiates for these Yogis every experience is an expression of the divine, it is of the nature of pure conciousness, of Bhairava, that is the meaning of advaita in the context of Kaula Dharma.

    Shri Abhinavagupta, the greatest master of Kashmir shaivaism explains the same in Tantraloka ch. 29: The person who wants to perform a religious rite should bring a sexual partner, but not so if he is deluded by desire.

    Those not yet able to see the divine in the sexual act and discern it as Samghatta, can profit nonetheless and improve their health and well being by staying in the refined state of srngara rasa, by contemplating and cherishing art natural beauty and erotic depictions or cherishing the joy of good food. In the teachings of Kashmir shaivaism aka trika kaula, Parabhairava is joy pure and simple- ananda -and can be experienced by the qualified person easiest in all activities that are joyful.

    Only with shaktipat resulting from the descent of anugraha shakti, the shakti of grace the meaning of the kaula shastras can be unsealed. Understanding solely by human effort and intellect wthout a satguru is a vain task.

    This same basic principle of the Kaula Dharma, the sacrifical refinement of sense impressions as the path to realise the divine state, taught with simple words by the great Master of Kashmir shaivaism, swami lakshman joo in this video. Refined Enjoyment of the Sense Organs is the key concept. Rasa means translated "taste".

    Enjoy- if you can

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srV1bdQ68RM

    swami lakshman joo 3:44 "these delicious things are not meant for worldly people who will waste it"

    Shri Abhinavagupta Tantraloka:
    Therefore this phoneme ‘ emission’ Visarga’ h that is phoneme ha in the state of latency is termed Kamatattava in the kulagahavara tantra. The fullness of desire (Kama) is realized in compenetration samghatta.”
    Swami Lakshman joos commentary:
    The Kaula yogi also realizes this Shaktikundalini. He realizes it as Kamattava, ‘the Essence of Desire’ through the contemplation of the power of desire kamakala during the secret rite caryakrama at that moment of immersion (samvesa), which is the compenetration (samghatta) of siddha and yogini.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 20 January 2012 at 07:12 PM.

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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TouchedbytheLord View Post
    I don't understand what you're saying. Are we to discount the stories and mythologies as having lessons in there somewhere, though we may not take them literally? Aren't we all part of lila? Isn't creation the recreation of God, as Shankara pointed out?

    If "what a nut does in a cremation ground with white paint on his body" brings him closer to his God, who is to judge him wrong? Is Hinduism not varied enough to allow for many different beliefs, approaches and practices? I'm just not understanding your response.

    Would like to see what vaishnavas have to say, they will be able to contribute here with their insights.

    Anyway we both are on thesame side of aisle. If we agree that theyare stories which they really are, Iam fine with that. My response was with ref to the palace dweller and his bed room pictures as posted above. Romance and sexualforeplay, with Krishna as central figure as described by someone above,doesn’t apply to Krishna in Physical Sense, its more of imagination from both genuine devotees and not so genuine ones. Krishna’s life outside the realm of implementing dharma proper,especially about his physical needs, needs a proper look. His enlightening Arjuna about dangers of attachment,removing his darkness and finally encouraging him to act to fight adharma is where his role comes out in all its grace. But then he also clearly had spread love around, but his physical participation for his own needs is non existent.

    I hope Iam makingsense here. Even in his human form, a perfect yogi like Krishna, will have no serious use of material means like sex for his Ananda. See now sex and romance for us humans is clearly dharmic within its well defined limitations, however characterizing Krishna working on his own gratification becomes OUR Leela. Some draw on Krishna for anything they liked, notwithstanding their adoration and Bhakti. The guy who lived in the above palace example was one such individual. Olden time Romeos went overboard about romantic side of Krisna, that’s fine, taking it a myth is logical ‘cause it all comes as part of larger leela. In peacetime, as was the most world, hindus had it good. The result- the arts, lit other humanities flourished. And ‘theme of romance’ justifiably claimed solid share of those creative works. Krishna’s personal life was overused.

    What we see within the 4 walls of mandirs that were built in stipulation ( to Agamas) only matter, those agamas are the recognized Shastras. Kalidasas and Srinathas were great writers but then they are not vedic sages, they wandered boundlessly in their creative landscape. Iam not sure my POV is any clearer than before. You will have the last word on this.
    Last edited by charitra; 20 January 2012 at 06:21 PM.

  7. #17
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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    The other way around it makes more sense. If one is a spiritual evolved person one can see the divine everywhere,
    Yes, what you say makes sense... the point I wished to offer was the notion of only seeing the flesh and nothing else. Then one is subordinated to paśuka.

    If one spends some time studying & looking to the 29th chapter of the trantrāloka ( that of kula) it points to the subtler and richer meaning of physical union; yet this ~union~ is not based upon the rank-and-file.


    You mention svāmī lakṣman-jū . He teaches that all contacts with the senses are by nature ~sexual~, perhaps a better word is sensuous. There is a union of the physical with the non-physical and joy can come from this.


    We can go deeper¹ into this if there is interest.

    praṇām

    1. Going deeper into this, we will need to move to the uttara folder as the concepts are much more robust, and
    a bit more esoteric.
    Last edited by yajvan; 20 January 2012 at 07:47 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18
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    Thumbs Up Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Namaste charitra.

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post
    Anyway we both are on thesame side of aisle. If we agree that theyare stories which they really are, Iam fine with that. ...

    ...

    I hope Iam makingsense here. Even in his human form, a perfect yogi like Krishna, will have no serious use of material means like sex for his Ananda. See now sex and romance for us humans is clearly dharmic within its well defined limitations, however characterizing Krishna working on his own gratification becomes OUR Leela. Some draw on Krishna for anything they liked, notwithstanding their adoration and Bhakti. The guy who lived in the above palace example was one such individual. ...

    Iam not sure my POV is any clearer than before. You will have the last word on this.
    Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it is clearer and you make perfect sense; we are indeed on the same page. There are lessons to be learned from these stories, lessons which are not so obvious.

    I was thinking you thought I thought (ooh, my head is spinning now ) of Krishna's and Radha's love as Earthly and physical. I don't see it that way... I see it as transcending what is Earthly, as They transcend everything material and Earthly. That's why I said originally that I've never read of anything that suggested a sexual side to Their love. There's a perfect love there that I don't know that we can understand here on Earth, but we strive for. People do indeed ascribe their own views and beliefs, for example that king's palace's bedroom(s). We see what we want to see.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  9. #19

    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    The hypocrisy and pretensions to appear something one is not in some of the posts in this thread is rather in poor taste. The mere mention of the s-word gets one uncomfortable, and one looks for the nearest exit door. But instead of accepting one's pashu nature or take a doctrinal stance against sacred sexuality we want to appear take the pseudo-intellectual high ground.

    If the real and practical appear so uncomfortable and inconceivable, then the words are just words. Armchair philosophy does not get one liberation, but coming face to face with oneself, one's own mind, prejudices can be a start.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  10. #20
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    Re: Kali Shakti Question

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post
    [FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]

    What we see within the 4 walls of mandirs that were built in stipulation ( to Agamas) only matter, those agamas are the recognized Shastras.
    Thanks again for your support another excellent contribution. The shastras should be our guiding light not some arbitrary work of artists, and like i mentioned in my posting, the pictures have all been painted according to the Dhyana slokas of the Agamas and Tantras. This was mentioned in the description. The sorry thing here is that i forget the exact titles.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 21 January 2012 at 12:15 PM.

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