Non-Religious Hindus

[Surya Deva]

You have succesfully hijacked Hindu Dharma Forums with your nonsense theories. Good luck, I am out of here.

Apologies if I have hijacked this thread, that is obviously not my intention. I wouldn't really call what I am sharing "nonsense theories" though. It is simply historical fact that philosophical Hinduism(Upanishads and Darsana period) preceded the Puranic Hinduism and the later bhakti movement. The Puranas are much later than the classical upanishads and the darsanas.

I understand you are a strong adherent of Puranic Hinduism, so you are obviously offended by my lack of reverence for the Puranas.

[anirvan]

I think this is what I find unfortunate about the masses today in the world, they are not capable enough to think. Nor are they capable enough to love. Most people today in the world live a secular life and religion takes a secondary role. However, we do live in an age of science and technology, and intellectuals do have a lot of power to bring about change.

This is not exactly un-fortunate,but its the blessings of God to THE PEOPLES OF TODAY.
See,Hinduism is not a Pizza out-let, its a Food court where one will get all variety of food to satisfy the taste of every kind of human on earth.

Why Adi-Shankarachary came to earth? His mission was to take the philosophical arguments to such a level that anybody who is non-believer and rationalist will be thoughtless at the Hindu philosophy.

Many of today"s educated rational thinking peoples definitely will be attracted
towards philosophic arguments on scientific basis.I was one among them,who
was interested in science only to search if any answer lies there.

FConsider the cases of following--

1-But there are certainly more evolved peoples who don"t need such arguments and scientific evidence to pursue higher spiritual goals ,because they are bestowed with indistinguishable fire of faith and determination by birth,just they need some initiation and they are there.

2-Again there are lots of innocent people with simple faith and just need a Idol,a story rekindle the love for divine in their heart,.

3-Again much more educated peoples who wants to pursue the path of devotion after realized the absolute truth and goal of life studying Upanisad and vedas.what will they follow.For them the study of pastime of Radha-Krishna in purana is the prescribed sadhna which fuels the love for divine.

4-Again a person who achieved realization with Jnana path,then whats next?
His next path is path of Love?and puranic study.

Jnana path is like eating Vitamin capsules,Puranic path is like taking Fruit juice ,sprouts and salads.

Hinduism is vast Roof under which each human can his preferred and safe place to grow.

The beauty of Hinduism is that it does not favor any practices. Practices have come and gone, but the philosophy beating at the kernel of Hinduism has remained the same.[/QUOTE

]

Your above statement is not correct.The real Beauty of Hinduism is that It teaches through philosophy ,THE highest truth,but In different language to different linguistic peoples,At same time gives you plethora of options to practice according to the ability as well as taste of the person.which is again tailor made By a Sadguru for his Disciple.

[Eastern Mind]

I honestly do not believe that murti-pooja, mandirs, ishta-devatas, caste regulations are necessary.

Vannakkam: Have you ever actually stood in front of a murthi at an ancient 1000 year old temple in India, having your name chanted by a priest to introduce you to the deity residing there? Apparently not. Hindus to the tune of some 100 million souls per day do almost exactly that. Why? ...

Here's a possibility? ...

From another perspective, the intellect clouds intuition. It is a cover to the intuitive mind, and the more intellect we gather, the less open we can be to the power, the shakti, the overwhelmingly transformational grace of God given in these temples and in the Lotus of the Heart of all of us. All we have to do is open ourselves to that, and karma can be eased, life lived more joyously, and more. This is Hinduism.

Aum Namasivaya

[Kismet]

From another perspective, the intellect clouds intuition. It is a cover to the intuitive mind, and the more intellect we gather, the less open we can be to the power, the shakti, the overwhelmingly transformational grace of God given in these temples and in the Lotus of the Heart of all of us. All we have to do is open ourselves to that, and karma can be eased, life lived more joyously, and more. This is Hinduism.
Aum Namasivaya

Very nice insight, EM. Couldn't agree more. I agree that sometimes the intellectual grows out of proportion to the intuitive, and thus covers it. I have to get in touch with it more, nowadays, myself.

A good quote by Einstein that might shed even more light:

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant.
We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

[Eastern Mind]

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant.
We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

Vannakkam Kismet: What a beautiful quote ... and this coming from one of the brightest guys (intellectually) ever. Thanks.

Aum Namasivaya

[Seeker123]

They simply cannot relate to the mythology, the idol worship and the rituals which come across as blind superstition to them.

One can get Gnana by reading Vedanta. But for the Gnana to work one has to be qualified - viveka, vairagya, sama, dama, pure mind etc. There is no need for idol worship if one can see a formless God everywhere. Till then idol worship, puja, prayer etc. helps develop Bhakthi. Rituals are Karma yoga and help acquire a pure mind. Take Shraddam - if you look at it and ask how it helps the dead forefathers then it looks like blind rittual but if you see it as a thanksgiving then it makes sense.

[sankar]

They simply cannot relate to the mythology, the idol worship and the rituals which come across as blind superstition to them

namaskars Surya Deva,

im not a theistic hindu, but my opinion is that the idol worship is often underrated. Those who does it well, knows well about the magical effects of idol worship. Remember the story of Ekalavya where he made use of an idol to become a great archer. I would say idol worship is the best option to start with for majority, as it can bring humbleness to them. You call it a blind superstition, is not god the biggest superstition? Is brahman really the god?

[Surya Deva]

Namaste

On the subject of bhakti:

If murti pooja, ishta devatas, mandirs are essential in Hinduism, then pray/tell why do they not exist in the Vedic age? In the Vedic age, and note the word Veda itself, the Vedic religion i.e. Hinduism was a knowledge tradition. It predominantly involved the practice of meditation, contemplation and self-inquiry to know the impersonal and formless god Brahman(represented by his many epithets Indra, Agni, Varuna etc). This is why the Upanishads are considered 'Vedanta', because they are the culmination of the Vedas. They are cream of the Vedas.

This tells me that the original Vedic religion had no use for muriti pooja, ishta devatas, mandirs. They only had the Vedas in those times, not Puranas. Thus murti pooja, ishta devatas, mandirs and Puranas are not essential to Hinduism, because it is evident Hinduism has existed without them. If something is not essential, it by definition superfluous and unnecessary.

When I read the Vedas(including the Upanishads) I constantly am enjoined to know, to inquire, to analyse, to develop my intellect:

We meditate on the adorable glory of the Lord,
Which is ever existent, every conscious and every blissful.
May he stimulate our vision and intellect.
(Sama.1462)

Constant and deep meditation are the means to revealing
the divine working of the supreme lord.
(Rig 5.2.6)

For success and happy life, sharpen thy intellect, like
the sharp blade of steel, vow to live by truth and truth
alone, dedicating thy life to god.
(Rig 6.47.10)

He who knows the truth about the universe
And the knows the secret of the conscious soul
pervading all
Achieves equanimity
He is rewarded by god with intuition insight
And eternal glory
(Atharva 10.2.229)

Knowledge of eternal truth leads to eternal peace and bliss
(Yajur 40.14)

The cosmos is created by means of toil
Patience and perseverance
Understood through knowledge
And being firmly vested with truth
Stay firmly
(Atharva 12.5.1)

The knower of reality is he who knows about
the invisible thread running inside the visible thread
(Atharva 10.8.37)

In order to lead a blissful life
Sharpen thy intellect and enrich thy mind
With brighter vision
(Sama.101)

In order to protect thyself
And make progress in life
Enhance thy treasure of thy wisdom and vision
(Sama.161)

Acquire and develop thy wisdom
Through discriminating between truth and falsehood
(Sama.171)

Bless me with divine vision at morn,
At noon of day, at evening and night.
Bless me that the seeds of intelligence ever flourish
In the warmth of thy love
as plants flourish bathed in the rays of the rising sun
(Atharva 6.108.5)

Enrich yourself by the acquisition of wisdom
Then act and perform deeds of noble quality
In the spirit of dedication
(Sama.189)

Enhance thy discrimnative power of intellect
And instill the spirit of invincible valour
in thy body
(Yajur 4.11)

He who knows the first vital string
binding all things formed in shape, colour and words
Knows only the physical form of the universe, and knows
very little
But he who goes deeper and perceives the string, the thin
web binding the universe with cords of unity
Knows the ultimate reality
(Atharva 10.8.38)

Translation by Pandit Vidyalankar, the Holy Vedas

This is just the Samhita portion of the Vedas, the Upanishads more strongly ratify meditation, self inquiry and contemplation on Brahman. This is collectively known as Jnana marga. In the Gita Krishna calls this the highest path and it is the first Yoga he teaches to Arjuna. That is the path that I am on.

What we don't see is injunctions to set up mandirs, choose an ishta devata, worship an idol. Historically we know that none of this existed in the Vedic age, the original Arya dharma was a religion of contemplation and noble thoughts and deeds. Through the dint of the Yoga of Jnana the Arya cultivated his character and virtue.

I am honestly surprised at the anti-intellectual sentiments expressed in this thread, because the Vedas are definitely not anti-intellectual. On the contrary the development of the intellect(Buddhi Yoga) is considered the highest practice. If intellect was not important in Vedic religion, then none of the Hindu philosophies would have developed, which developed out of the critical analysis of the Upanishads. One thing Hindus have historically been noted for is their intellectual tradition and intellectual genius. If that was not the case there would have been no Panini's, no Patanjali's no Kapilas, no Kanadas, no Gotamas etc

The very fact that Bhakti traditions needed the advent of entirely new philosophies to justify the existence and worship of a super personal god who grants grace to his beloved, rewards and punishes, personal heavens and hells, proves that the bhakti tradition was not originally a part of the original Vedic Arya dharma, and may even be called unnatural to it. In fact, as many scholars have noted, the Bhakti tradition is not very different from Abrahamic religions(Christianity can be called a Bhakti tradition) Strong Bhakti philosophers like Madhva even formulated their own doctrines of eternal damnation and salvation. The Puranic form of Hinduism is very similar to Abrahamic religions in that it is based on faith, personal relationship with god, mythology and adherence to scriptures.

I even wonder whether Puranic Hinduism has Abrahamic influence, because the time it arose was during the rise of other Bhakti traditions like Christianity and Islam, or whether it can be explained through a Jungian collective unconsciousness theory. In any case I reject Puranic Hinduism. I follow the original Vedic Hinduism, the original Arya dharma. Besides even the Puranas admit that they are are supplements to the Vedas, in which case they are not essential. They definitely do not carry the same authority as the Vedas. Thus I am at liberty to reject them.

Now as regards to the question of this thread of non-religious Hindu. I am non-religious Hindu because I practice the original Vedic dharma, which is philosophical in nature and not religious. I practice it by contemplating on reality all the time. In that sense philosophy is my religion, but not religion in the conventional sense.

[Surya Deva]

Just to put some historical perspective on this:

Narada Bhakti Sutras: 900-1000 CE
Brahma Sutras: 400BCE
Upanishads: 1000-800BCE

The concept of bhakti has of course existed since late antiquity, but the form bhakti took in Puranic Hinduism is very different to its earlier form where idol worship was never essential, but rather bhakti was used in a generic sense as love for Brahman. In which case I am also a bhakta, because I love Brahman.

[Surya Deva]

Vannakkam: Have you ever actually stood in front of a murthi at an ancient 1000 year old temple in India, having your name chanted by a priest to introduce you to the deity residing there? Apparently not. Hindus to the tune of some 100 million souls per day do almost exactly that. Why? ...

I have, it does absolutely nothing for me. It feels artificial and silly to me. I get absolutely no fulfillment from it. I have tried to feel the sacredness of it, but I cannot help thinking how primitive it is. I feel much more connected to the sacred when I speak to my own self, when I sit alone with my thoughts, when I contemplate on reality.

The kind of practice you are advocating easily degenerates into pure sentimentalism. I have seen countless people worshiping idols and trying to convince themselves they are feeling love. They get good at pretending to feel love and try to do one better than the other to show much love they are feeling it. At a Durga pooja festival in India I saw a woman holding a baby go into absolute rapture during a bhajan, she was spinning around like a lunatic, throwing herself violently all over the place(while holding her baby) the people standing near her all moved away and took the baby from her, and she was still in that state. She was acting like she was possessed by Durga herself. The priest there then fed her delusion and consecrated her with holy water.

I saw yet another ridiculous sight at a Ganesha pooja festival. A little boy was dressed up as Ganesha and a great fanfare took place to announce his arrival, and then so many illiterate people thronged to the boys feet, rubbed their head over his feet and asked for his blessings. When this charade ends, that little boy is going to go home and act like any other regular boy.

I would never describe the kind of people that throng to these festivals as enlightened people, but rather as emotional fools. It is not surprising how often stampedes take place at these gatherings and people are trampled over to death.

Stuff like what I just described is exactly so many people laugh at Hinduism and why Hindus like my college friend feel ashamed.

Here's a possibility? ...

From another perspective, the intellect clouds intuition. It is a cover to the intuitive mind, and the more intellect we gather, the less open we can be to the power, the shakti, the overwhelmingly transformational grace of God given in these temples and in the Lotus of the Heart of all of us. All we have to do is open ourselves to that, and karma can be eased, life lived more joyously, and more. This is Hinduism.

Aum Namasivaya

Intellect does not cloud intuition, I think what you mean is gathering knowledge clouds intuition. Intellect is not about the gathering knowledge, but about developing your ability to discriminate knowledge(viveka) The more acute your intellect becomes the more crisper your vision. The more crisper your vision the more you will come to know the actual reality. This is the intuition.

In Vedanta shabd or word is recognized as the mains means of knowledge, above perception and inference? Why? Because there is something within us which has the ability to understand the meaning of words. Meaning is not an perceptual or inferential process, but it an instant intuition. I will give an example: If somebody tells you a joke, and you get it, you laugh - the combination of words produced, the context and your state of mind has produced an instant meaning. Similarly, the knower within you if told, "Tat Tvam asi" has the intuitive ability to grasp its meaning, only that its intuitional faculty(buddhi) is clouded by false knowledge. Thus by practicing constant vivek and vairagaya in life one develops the nature of mind which can understand the import of the mahavakyas. If one is already at the stage, it only required to hear a single mahavakya once to become enlightened.

The paradox to awakening your prajana is to constantly contemplate on the nature of reality, self and the world. Thus the Vedantin is always immersed in study.