Non-Religious Hindus

[MahaHrada]

If murti pooja, ishta devatas, mandirs are essential in Hinduism, then pray/tell why do they not exist in the Vedic age?

Vedic religion was in the beginning just practised by a tiny community and participation was also restricted by birth into this community. It only slowly spread from the north west about 3500 years ago into other regions and mixed with the indigenous religions and spiritual traditions. These local religious traditions had their own traditions differing from those of the brahmin community these already included idol worship etc. since prehistoric time. There are prehistoric archeological remains showing shakti idols long before there were any traces or archeological remains, or any written vedic religious texts, or any other traces of brahmanism. The presence of idol worship etc. in Hinduism clearly predates the later influence of the tiny brahmin community that was following vedic Religion. In later times both traditions existed side by side. Modern Hinduism is still primarily agamic and not based on the vedic religion, but of course today also contains some vedic influence.

http://adishakti.org/images/shakti_figurine_1.jpg

http://www.profimedia.si/photo/mothe...0086687121.jpg

http://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/...mohenjo_hi.jpg

A late result of this early admixture of communities are the puranas, they combined some vedic influence with the more ancient agamic religions this gave rise to the puranic stories.

Worship of stones, trees, idols, lingas , jars and other objects predate the vedas by far and these practises have always been the religion of majority of the indian population since prehistoric times.
Vedic religion is neither the most ancient nor the most widespread tradition in India. The majority of hindus were not allowed to even listen to vedic recitation or read the upanishads until westerners descrated these vedic rules and published and translated these texts and made them available to all interested.
The vedic ritualism is much more elaborate than the agamic or puranic and these vedic Yagyas are also very expensive to arrange, another reason why vedic religion was only practised by a small elite that could afford to sponsors these events. The vedic tradition is far from being intellectual or philosophical it is highly centered around the performance of costly and elaborate sacrifices.
So please before you post all kind of subjective imaginations read a book or two about the History of Bharat and its diverse, colorful ancient traditions, communities, religions and ethnics and don´t base your knowledge on the predeliction and bias of western scholars and philosophers for just one of the later vedic traditions the uttara mimamsa , centered mainly around the Upanishadic speculations, or even more recent vedantic traditions which are already heavily modified to be more compatible to Christian and islamic monotheism. The more ancient ritualistic vedic purva mimamsa was also considered superstitous and magical by islamists and christians alike, as well as the panentheistic tantric and agamic traditions which on top of idol worship included worship of humans, like female Yoginis, Siddhas and Saints this was something the monotheist rulers considered the most terrible Sin possibble and such practises were always despised and hated and persecuted the most. You only repeat these anti-hindu sentiments and the colonial bias for the Uttara Mimamsakas.

[Surya Deva]

Vedic religion was in the beginning just practised by a tiny community and participation was also restricted by birth into this community. It only slowly spread from the north west about 3500 years ago into other regions and mixed with the indigenous religions and spiritual traditions.

Your entire post is predicated on accepting AIT. I do not believe in AIT so I am liberty to ignore your post. I consider the Harappa civilization post-vedic, it is more similar to the janaprada period where various republics arose in India, and I think Harappa civilization was one of them. There is now evidence that a larger more urban and older civilisation existed in the Gulf of Cambay, of which the Harappa was an off-shoot.

There is no Hinduism before the Vedas, this is just the imagination of Western scholars, who were trying to divide the Northerners against the Southerners. The Vedas date back even before the times of Harappa. The 1500BCE date given by Western scholars has absolutely no scientific basis, it is based on biblical chronology which considers history to have begun 6000 years ago.

If you want to discuss this further you should post in my other thread, "Is the history of Bharat severely distorted" or other AIT threads. I will not reply to any further posts here on this topic.

[MahaHrada]

Your entire post is predicated on accepting AIT. I do not believe in AIT so I am liberty to ignore your post. I consider the Harappa civilization post-vedic, it is more similar to the janaprada period where various republics arose in India, and I think Harappa civilization was one of them. There is now evidence that a larger more urban and older civilisation existed in the Gulf of Cambay, of which the Harappa was an off-shoot.

There is no Hinduism before the Vedas, this is just the imagination of Western scholars, who were trying to divide the Northerners against the Southerners. The Vedas date back even before the times of Harappa. The 1500BCE date given by Western scholars had absolutely no scientific basis, it is based on biblical chronology which considers history to have begun 6000 years ago.

If you want to discuss this further you should post in my other thread, "Is the history of Bharat severely distorted" or other AIT threads. I will not reply to any further posts here on this topic.

What do you think the non dvijas and non brahmins, that means the majority of the population of India, that were not allowed to hear or recite the Vedas or partake in the yagyas do?

Sit around without a spiritual path and practise no religion ?

The place of origin of the brahmin community is a hotly debated subject, my post does not contain any reference to this topic. I don´t know why you make this up. Everybody knows that there is the tantric or agamic and the vedic path and the one is open to all communities and the other only to brahmins or dvijas. Do you want to stick to the topic or only provoke people with posting meaningless imaginations all over this forum?
Someone must have worshipped the idols unearthed in mohenjo daro and harappa, i even agree with you, it were not the brahmins Now you insist that brahmins lived in Mohenjo-daro and Harrappa. Oopps?! Shakti Idols and Linga and Yoni worshipping brahmins? Now did they or did they not... you decide...
In another post you told us that your self study of the Vedas was not accepted in India. Why should I lie to you and tell you something different? You do not have the required qualifications for this study. For the different paths you need different qualifications. Face the facts or go on dreaming. Whatever you do it will not affect Hinduism as it is practised in India for Millenia.

[Eastern Mind]

I have, it does absolutely nothing for me. It feels artificial and silly to me. I get absolutely no fulfillment from it.

Vannakkam: Wow. Now I actually feel sorry for you. But it is impossible to argue bhakti with intellectuals, for bhakti is outside the intellect. For that reason, I'm out of the discussion.

Kind of like a male doctor discussing the pains of childbirth with a woman.

Aum Namasivaya

[charitra]

I will share a personal example: A Hindu friend of mine in college shared his disillusionment with Hinduism with me, he could not at all understand the stories of gods and goddesses, the rituals which he saw as bizarre and the caste regulations and he was apologetic to me about being 'Hindu' In class when people were asked to identify if they had any religious beliefs or not, he actually lowered his eyes and kept quiet. It was not until he met me that his interest in Hinduism rekindled. I introduced him to philosophical Hinduism, and he was very impressed by it. He said to me, "Why was I not told about this before" Now, my friend regularly reads the Gita, practices daily meditation and proudly talks about Hinduism.

I think we should put our best foot forward today and Puranic Hinduism is definitely not our best foot. The world admires us today for Yoga and Vedanta, not for our idol worship. I am not knocking idol worship

21st century world is much more at ease with practices like meditation and self-inquiry.

Agree with you on this. I see your point.

But then we have to patiently 'educate' every one what this all encompassing murthy worship is all about. Dont need to be apologetic or run for cover. We keep everything as is but get more 'talkative' to eliminate the misconceptions around our way of worship instead. Yes, we have to quickly get down to the business of enthralling the curious (read disgusted) onlookers about our philosophy.. Sorry I am still not convinced and I would n't remove the murthys my highly educated wife so devotionally pray in front of every morning. On the other hand i seriously encourage you to install one at your place , Krishna or Ganesha for example. Namaste.

[Surya Deva]

What do you think the non dvijas and non brahmins, that means the majority of the population of India, that were not allowed to hear or listen to the Vedas or partake in the yagyas do?

What should I think? The non dvjita were not allowed to study the Vedas for the same reason somebody who does not pass high school is not allowed admission into college. In the past not everybody got a school education, because schools for the masses were not set up, so most people just ended up getting educated by their parents into the family vocation. However, in exceptional cases gurukuls did admit aspiring student from lower castes.

The reason Vedic education was elite was simply to preserve the quality of Vedic education. As in any other elitist organization, lower quality cannot be admitted because it will spoil their standards. In modern times this of course does not apply because anybody can read and study the Vedas, because they are abundantly available.

The origin of the brahmin community is a hotly debated subject, my post does not contain any reference to this topic. I don´t know why you make this up. Everybody knows that there is the tantric or agamic and the vedic path and the one is open to all communities and the other only to brahmins or dvijas. Do you want to stick to the topic or only provoke people with posting meaningless imaginations all over this forum?

The Tantra or Agamic tradition is a late medieval development. It is not different from the Vedic tradition, but is a development within it, like the Puranic tradition. It is your burden of proof to prove that there was a Tantra tradition that preceded the Vedas. I have heard it all already from Dravidian nationalists and still have not seen any proof of a great Tantra tradition that existed prior to Vedic times.

[MahaHrada]

What should I think? The non dvjita were not allowed to study the Vedas for the same reason somebody who does not pass high school is not allowed admission into college. In the past not everybody got a school education, because schools for the masses were not set up, so most people just ended up getting educated by their parents into the family vocation. However, in exceptional cases gurukuls did admit aspiring student from lower castes.
The reason Vedic education was elite was simply to preserve the quality of Vedic education. As in any other elitist organization, lower quality cannot be admitted because it will spoil their standards. In modern times this of course does not apply because anybody can read and study the Vedas, because they are abundantly available.
The Tantra or Agamic tradition is a late medieval development. It is not different from the Vedic tradition, but is a development within it, like the Puranic tradition. It is your burden of proof to prove that there was a Tantra tradition that preceded the Vedas. I have heard it all already from Dravidian nationalists and still have not seen any proof of a great Tantra tradition that existed prior to Vedic times.

Now you didn´t answer my question what did the other people do? They did almost the same as nowadays worship trees, stones, rivers, yogis, yoginis, saints, and idols.

Still today local religious traditions are mostly oral traditions, scriptures are not necessary to practise a religion, and certainly cannot tell us how old a tradition is. We have many religions all over the world that go back to the stone age like the australian aborigines that do not have a single book. Agamas were written down in the middle ages so what? Vedas also existed as an oral tradition before they were written down and still are only partially recorded in script. Vedas are an oral tradition as well , books are only a reminder they still have to be studied with a Guru from mouth to ear to be valid, all else, like self study, is still considered invalid.

If there was no indigenous oral folk religion in India in the vedic age who worshipped the Idols unearthed in Excavations?

A non brahmin will not be accepted to study in the vedic tradition, not in the past and not today, it is open to a single community. This is the tradition, you can follow new age modern vedanta but that is a recent development. You experienced this yourself when you visited india. Why deny the truth?
Hinduism as a whole is not elitist, there is a path for everyone. Idol worship and worship of humans, stones, trees and other Symbols is as ancient as the Land and you should not denigrate other ancient indian traditions just because you prefer your own style of neo vedanta.

[Surya Deva]

Vannakkam: Wow. Now I actually feel sorry for you. But it is impossible to argue bhakti with intellectuals, for bhakti is outside the intellect. For that reason, I'm out of the discussion.

Kind of like a male doctor discussing the pains of childbirth with a woman.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste,

You should not have to feel sorry for me because I don't get bhakti. In the same vain I could feel sorry for you because you don't get Jnana. I just hope what you are doing is working and will bring you closer to liberation, rather than what it is doing for most people I have seen on this path, giving them a false self of spirituality, degenerating into blind superstition and sentimentalism.

Not to sound offensive, but I sometimes wonder if the decline of India is to do with the rise of Puranic Hinduism and Bhakti. I wonder what India would have been like if it was still following the original Vedic Hinduism and Jnana marga. Those great intellectuals that India gave birth to during the times of Vedic Hinduism seem to have disappeared today or are few and far between. No more Panini and Kapilas seem to have arisen from the soils of India.

It is also interesting to note the civilization that does have a very strong intellectual culture today - the West - is the most successful; practically all scientific, philosophical and technological innovations have come from the West in the last 500 years. I only just wonder what would happen if India today reverted to its old intellectual ways.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste,

You should not have to feel sorry for me because I don't get bhakti. In the same vain I could feel sorry for you because you don't get Jnana. I just hope what you are doing is working and will bring you closer to liberation, rather than what it is doing for most people I have seen on this path, giving them a false self of spirituality, degenerating into blind superstition and sentimentalism.

Not to sound offensive, but I sometimes wonder if the decline of India is to do with the rise of Puranic Hinduism and Bhakti. I wonder what India would have been like if it was still following the original Vedic Hinduism and Jnana marga. Those great intellectuals that India gave birth to during the times of Vedic Hinduism seem to have disappeared today or are few and far between. No more Panini and Kapilas seem to have arisen from the soils of India.

It is also interesting to note the civilization that does have a very strong intellectual culture today - the West - is the most successful; practically all scientific, philosophical and technological innovations have come from the West in the last 500 years. I only just wonder what would happen if India today reverted to its old intellectual ways.

Vannakkam: Just to clarify, for others here. I get jnana, but there is confusion to what jnana is. The soul evolves or goes through the stages of charya, kriya, yoga, and jnana. The jnana that intellectuals have grasped is book knowledge. The likes of Ramana Maharshi, and other mystics in our tradition didn't read books. The jnana they got is the wisdom achieved from the practices of meditation. I'm oft reminded of my Guru's Guru's quote, "It's not in books, you fool!" as he threw a book at some German guy visiting his simple hut of an ashram.

There is overlap in the stages for sure... charya is virtuous living, that's step one, out of that comes bhakti, or temple worship, then it overlaps into yoga, meditation, and delving within. Then, out of that, comes jnana, or wisdom. So this jnana is clearly very very different from book knowledge. It's knowledge of the Self, perfect clarity of mind.

The Self will never be realised through a book. We're here to realise the Self, not become slaves to the intellect. All the books in the world won't give you moksha. That ... well, you have to experience the non-experience, or so I have read. So books can be guidelines towards that, but ultimately one has to become a gentle soul, a humble being, a caring being, and go inward.

Regarding the denial of another's experience, and calling it 'hogwash' as in the looking at someone else's bhakti from a western intellect is just being presumptuous, as if you were some kind of mind reader. For some, it would be downright insulting. "No, no, you didn't have that experience. It's impossible!" Often devotees enter blissful states. Some temples average 400 000 devotees a day. Why? Because they're all deluded nutcases, tricked into some imaginary blissful state by their own mind? I think not. But once again, you have to experience it. If you haven't had that moment of energy rush from nature, from somewhere, from temples, from the shakti emanating from a realised Master, then you are simply not capable of getting it, just as a Nigerian doesn't get snow.

Aum Namasivaya

[charitra]

In another post you told us that your self study of the Vedas was not accepted in India... You do not have the required qualifications for this study. For the different paths you need different qualifications..

Namaste,
I dont agree with you on this.

But then most of what you wrote on this thread makes sence and is very informative.