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Thread: Can we let go of Hinduism?

  1. #31
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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    A couple of points worth bringing up. First, the non-relativistic theory of gravity currently in use is in fact referred to by professionals as Newtonian gravity. So in fact Newton did receive due credit for his discovery, even though he does not own the physical effect in any real sense. While I do believe that the principles of Hinduism are universal, I think that by the same token we can credit Indians with their initial discovery.
    Yes, we do give Newton credit, but it does not change the fact that his name is irrelevant to our usage of it. The laws of gravity are more important than Newton himself. If we to forget him, and forget his laws, the same law could be discovered again in the future by somebody else.

    I agree with you with we can credit Indian people with the first initial discovery of the timeless spiritual laws. However, the timeless spiritual laws are more important than the Indians themselves. If we forget them and even forget the laws, the same laws could be discovered again in the future by somebody else.

    The other point I feel is worth mentioning is that professonal scientists would strongly object to some of the claims you've made. As a physicist (OK astronomer, but we've got more or less the same education as physicists), I'd have to say that quantum mechanics in no way supports the existence of an infinite field of consciousness or the nonexistence of space and time. Why do I bring this up? Because most scientists are atheists; while they are far preferable to Christians, they still would laugh at most of Hindu theology and accuse us of perverting science with a religious agenda. This is yet another reason to assign ourselves a label. If you suggest that all Hindus should simply disperse into the general scientific population and disseminate our pearls of wisdom, I assure you we will be met only with atheistic derision (and the charge of heathenry from the occasional Christian). Perhaps this is more of an argument from practicality, but it pays for Hindus to stick together.
    In fact the first physicist to posit that an intelligent field of consciousness must be posited to explain the finding of quantum mechanics was the founder of quantum theory Max Plank himself. After him the next quantum physicist to posit that consciousness was needed to collapse the wave function was Neil Bohr, known as the consciousness theory of measurement. Erwin Schrodinger, though did not agree with the consciousness theory of measurement(hence he developed the Schrodinger paradox) appealed to Vedanta to explain quantum mechanics using Atman = Brahman. Thereafter, the physicist Wigner developed the theory of consciousness measurement and Wigners paradox to explain that the wavefunction collapse can only be done by a conscious observer, the question he asked was which observer. After him Bell designed an experiment to test the assumption that locality is true(space and time) exists known as the Bell inequality test. The experiment was first conducted by Alain Aspect and it was indeed proven that space and time did not exist. Later experiments known as the Legett inequalirt test to test the assumption of reality have shown that reality does not exist.

    I have a read a lot of books on quantum physics and the findings in quantum physics strongly indicate that consciousness must be admitted to exist as a physical substance in order to explain its finding.

    It is true that many in the scientific community oppose this, because as you say many are atheists. However, science is not based on the opinion or religion of scientists, but on the preponderance of scientific evidence. The scientific evidence is strongly in favor of the existence of the physical existence of a consciousness field, and more and more physicists today are brave enough to assert this, such as Peter Russel, Amit Gosami(a Hindu). I recommend the book, "Quantum Enigma: How physicists encounter consciousness" to explore this further, which is written by physicists themselves.

    It is true if Hindus started approaching the scientific community trying to bring their spiritual research recorded in their scriptures to scientists, the scientists would laugh at them - however not all of them would - Schrodinger, the father of Quantun mechanics obviously didn't, he was so impressed with Hindu philosophy he practically converted to it. There are many physicists today which make it a point to read Hindu philosophy. Moreover, if being ridiculed was going to phase us, then we might as well not approach anybody, because everybody who is ignorant of Hinduism laughs at it. All alternative ideas get laughed at, even Einstein was laughed at when he first published his General Relativity theory.

    Hindus have a very important role to play in science today, because their insights and understandings about reality have an audience of many scientists today. Unfortunately, because Indian Hindus do not pay interest to their own philosophies, it is non-Indian Hindus or Western people that end up drawing from Hindu philosophy, devising new and original theories and taking credit. The same happened recently with Rupert Sheldrake, who studied Hindu philosophy extensively at Indian ashrams, then returned and developed his theory of the morphogenetic field.

    Then Indian Hindus turn around and complain that their ideas have been plagiarized Well, of course that is going to happen, if Indian Hindus are not going to pay interest to their own Vedic knowledge, then somebody else is going to. Today, ironically, 90% of the people enrolled onto courses in academia on Hindu and Indological studies are non-Indians --- There is a reason why I consider India a dead country. We Indians(I am Indian as well) have trivialized our great heritage of Santana dharma into mythological stories of gods and goddesses, temples and idols and neglect our treasure trove of philosophy, even denigrate our own philosophy.
    Last edited by Surya Deva; 06 February 2012 at 07:34 AM.

  2. #32
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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
    .
    We Indians(I am Indian as well) have trivialized our great heritage of Santana dharma into mythological stories of gods and goddesses, temples and idols and neglect our treasure trove of philosophy, even denigrate our own philosophy.
    Agree.

    Try to delve deeper into the comparative philosophies genre and explain away how the contemporary western thinking drew heavily from ancient hindu wisdom by adding lot of specifics with supporting reference slokas. Of course in such scientific works you can downplay the puranas by not mentioning them altogether. Try not to belittle the divinity though, to ward off any prarabda karma accruing. During my years in England I learnt the phrase 'publish or perish', and i didnt perish.

    Iam sure you can find all the reference works on the planet in London libraries. Keep good work. And good luck, philosophy as a profession must be a daunting task to say the least. Namaste.

  3. #33
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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
    Namaste,
    Quote Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post

    I approached one Siddha to learn Yoga from him, and he said to me, "I will teach you Yoga but first you need to shave your head, cook and clean forme and listen to everything I say, and beg on the street"

    A discussion with a Vedantin acharya proved fruitless, because despite thefact that I had studied Vedanta informally and had read the Englishtranslations of all major Vedanta texts, he refused to acknowledge any of myknowledge because I had not learned it through the proper channels and inSanskrit.

    Another Hindu pandit told me, "You must learn to speak Hindi, must wearIndian clothes, and follow your varna in order to be a real Hindu"
    I would have been very shocked to read any other type of response than the ones you got. First qualification of a student is humility. Those comments were tests of your humility which I think you failed miserably.

    What makes you think that if you showed up at the doorstep of an acarya or siddha that they should bend the rules for you? Why should they not ask you to go through the proper channel of learning?


    This was all very repulsive to me and strongly made me question myalliegience to Hinduism.
    Possibly the feeling was mutual. The acaryas and the pundits that you talked to were disgusted at your requests. You are not an adhikari to anything; they are not obligated to teach you anything.

    No, we will not let go of Hinduism just because you ask us to.
    Last edited by satay; 06 February 2012 at 10:43 AM.
    satay

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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
    There is a reason why I consider India a dead country.
    This might come as a shock but India considers you dead as well.
    satay

  5. #35
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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
    Yes, we do give Newton credit, but it does not change the fact that his name is irrelevant to our usage of it. The laws of gravity are more important than Newton himself. If we to forget him, and forget his laws, the same law could be discovered again in the future by somebody else.

    I agree with you with we can credit Indian people with the first initial discovery of the timeless spiritual laws. However, the timeless spiritual laws are more important than the Indians themselves. If we forget them and even forget the laws, the same laws could be discovered again in the future by somebody else.
    In theory I suppose you're correct that Hindu Dharma could be independently derived by non-Indians, and thus not be associated with India. But let's be realistic here. All Scripture which speaks of Hindu Dharma, including the Vedas, the epics, the Puranas, etc., were all written in India. Every recognized Rishi and Avatar of God was born in India. Thus you'd be hard pressed to ignore the association of Hindu Dharma with India. Now, I'm not advocating any sort of Indian nationalism here. But these timeless truths are put into practice almost exclusively by Indians. While I am immensely thankful for every Westerner on this forum, the fact is that it constitutes a highly non-random sample of Hinduism in general. You and I are perfect examples. Though we are both from Western Christian countries, somehow we ended up on a Hindu forum with user names taken straight out of the Mahabharata. Why do you think that is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
    In fact the first physicist to posit that an intelligent field of consciousness must be posited to explain the finding of quantum mechanics was the founder of quantum theory Max Plank himself. After him the next quantum physicist to posit that consciousness was needed to collapse the wave function was Neil Bohr, known as the consciousness theory of measurement. Erwin Schrodinger, though did not agree with the consciousness theory of measurement(hence he developed the Schrodinger paradox) appealed to Vedanta to explain quantum mechanics using Atman = Brahman. Thereafter, the physicist Wigner developed the theory of consciousness measurement and Wigners paradox to explain that the wavefunction collapse can only be done by a conscious observer, the question he asked was which observer. After him Bell designed an experiment to test the assumption that locality is true(space and time) exists known as the Bell inequality test. The experiment was first conducted by Alain Aspect and it was indeed proven that space and time did not exist. Later experiments known as the Legett inequalirt test to test the assumption of reality have shown that reality does not exist.

    I have a read a lot of books on quantum physics and the findings in quantum physics strongly indicate that consciousness must be admitted to exist as a physical substance in order to explain its finding.
    Perhaps you could elaborate on this idea that space and time do not exist. Because as I read the above statement about the Aspect experiment (I'm not familiar with that name), your conclusion does not seem correct. I think you may be confusing the locality of interactions, i.e. the non-existence of action at a distance, with the non-existence of space and time. The problem with action at a distance is that it allows for instantaneous transmission of information, and quantum field theory localizes all interactions. But this doesn't negate the existence of space and time. General relativity relies on the existence of these concepts!

    As for what you've said about the Dharma-inspired interpretations of quantum mechanics, I'll take your word for it since history of science was never my cup of tea. That said, there are alternative interpretations to quantum mechanics. For example, the formalism put forth by David Bohm allows for determinism to be preserved, thus avoiding this business of collapse of the wavefunction. Furthermore, in my experience that very idea is generally unimportant in physics. The idea of the wavefunction is largely unimportant. It represents the eigenvectors of the Hamiltonian (the operator found in Schrodinger's Equation), and the eigenvalues are usually the physically interesting values. Quantum field theory does away with the need for wavefunctions altogether, relying instead on quantization of classical fields. Given that the wavefunction is not a physical observable, why make metaphysical arguments based on it?

    That's what your average secular scientist will tell you anyway. I actually agree that quantum physics is oddly familiar for one fluent in Vedic philosophy. But then, I'm a Hindu and thus have an obvious bias. There are theories out there that do not require us to personify consciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
    It is true that many in the scientific community oppose this, because as you say many are atheists. However, science is not based on the opinion or religion of scientists, but on the preponderance of scientific evidence. The scientific evidence is strongly in favor of the existence of the physical existence of a consciousness field, and more and more physicists today are brave enough to assert this, such as Peter Russel, Amit Gosami(a Hindu). I recommend the book, "Quantum Enigma: How physicists encounter consciousness" to explore this further, which is written by physicists themselves.

    It is true if Hindus started approaching the scientific community trying to bring their spiritual research recorded in their scriptures to scientists, the scientists would laugh at them - however not all of them would - Schrodinger, the father of Quantun mechanics obviously didn't, he was so impressed with Hindu philosophy he practically converted to it. There are many physicists today which make it a point to read Hindu philosophy. Moreover, if being ridiculed was going to phase us, then we might as well not approach anybody, because everybody who is ignorant of Hinduism laughs at it. All alternative ideas get laughed at, even Einstein was laughed at when he first published his General Relativity theory.

    Hindus have a very important role to play in science today, because their insights and understandings about reality have an audience of many scientists today. Unfortunately, because Indian Hindus do not pay interest to their own philosophies, it is non-Indian Hindus or Western people that end up drawing from Hindu philosophy, devising new and original theories and taking credit. The same happened recently with Rupert Sheldrake, who studied Hindu philosophy extensively at Indian ashrams, then returned and developed his theory of the morphogenetic field.

    Then Indian Hindus turn around and complain that their ideas have been plagiarized Well, of course that is going to happen, if Indian Hindus are not going to pay interest to their own Vedic knowledge, then somebody else is going to. Today, ironically, 90% of the people enrolled onto courses in academia on Hindu and Indological studies are non-Indians --- There is a reason why I consider India a dead country. We Indians(I am Indian as well) have trivialized our great heritage of Santana dharma into mythological stories of gods and goddesses, temples and idols and neglect our treasure trove of philosophy, even denigrate our own philosophy.
    Well, you'll get no argument from me (or many on this forum, I suspect) that Indians are a bunch of idiots who are too consumed by infighting as to recognize the treasures of our own Dharma. However, I would advise you not to eliminate the importance of God in Dharma. Without Bhagavan, it's all meaningless. You say that our stories, gods, and temples are unimportant to Hindu Dharma. But the stories from our Scriptures are the very basis for our understanding of God and ancient Indian history, as well as the basis for Indian culture. God is the object of worship, and our temples are where we show our devotion to him. Perhaps I'm missing something, but a quantum field inspires no devotion from me. By reducing Hindu Dharma to mere philosophy I fear you may be ignoring Sri Krishna's instruction in Gita to abandon our worldly attachments and surrender to him.

    Now as for India, I agree that it's not that great of a place to live right now. I wouldn't admit this to your average Westerner, but there's no way I'd want to leave the comforts of the US to live in a country where corruption is rampant and infrastructure is lacking. The question is: what are we who live in affluent nations going to do about the state of India? Do we adopt Western culture and simply let India die? Or do we try to use our relative wealth to improve the state of our homeland? At the end of the day other nations aren't going to consider us to be "one of them" from a cultural point of view, and even if they did, that would not make it true. India is our home, and I think it is in our best interest to do what we can to make it a place where we would actually like to live.

  6. #36
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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    Vannakkam Sanjay: Not sure if you noticed, but the person you responded to has been banned. Chances are no responses are forthcoming.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    Can you imagine, Surya Deva walking up to a Sadhu.

    SD: Yo dude, I want to be just like you.
    Sadhu: Okay man, do what I have done and renounce the world...
    SD: No way man, I am out of here..

    Surya Deva goes up to a Hindu priest

    SD: Hey priest, can you teach me how to be a Hindu
    Priest: Well, since you left the Sadhu and didn't want to become a renunciate and you are well educated and already over 30 years of age, why don't you get married?
    SD: No way man, I don't have time for a woman. I need at least seven hours a day to post on the interwebz.

    Surya Deva goes to a Vedanta Ashrama

    SD: Yo, I want to learn philosophy and stuff...
    Teachers: Sure, let us begin our studies with Sanskrit
    SD: No, no. You didn't understand, I said I already know everything.

    Surya Deva goes to a temple.

    SD: Hhm, maybe god can give me some answers...
    Devotees: showing signs of devotional ectasy.
    SD: Oh noes, I have landed right in a scene from Indiana Jones.

  8. #38
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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    Namaste Sahas,

    That is hilarious. You have a very fertile imagination!

    Pranam.

  9. #39
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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam Sanjay: Not sure if you noticed, but the person you responded to has been banned. Chances are no responses are forthcoming.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Oops. Well, there goes twenty minutes of my time that I won't get back.

  10. #40
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    Re: Can we let go of Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjaya View Post
    Oops. Well, there goes twenty minutes of my time that I won't get back.
    Vannakkam: I laughed, but I share in this attitude. Shows some affectionate detachment. My brother and I spent a day and a half one time building his garage, only to realise he's made a rather major measurement error. Another day and a half to get it back to where we'd started. Oh well, that's life.

    Aum Namasivaya

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