Results 1 to 10 of 30

Thread: Hitler and why Abrahamic soteriology sucks

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    1,278
    Rep Power
    1646

    Hitler and why Abrahamic soteriology sucks

    Greetings All:

    Assume there is divine justice.

    Hitler slaughters 6 million innocent Jews in WW2. How does Xian/Mohammedan soteriology work here?

    It appears that as per Xity, if Hitler asked for forgiveness on his death bed, all would been forgiven. So, all Hitler had to to was "accept JC as his personal lord and saviour".

    Likewise, in Islam, had Hitler pronounced "There is no God but God and Mohammed is his last messenger" before breathing his last, Allah would have forgiven his sins and provided him with unending bliss [and 72 you know whos] in heaven.

    Thus, an Abrahamic faithful in her afterlife has every chance of meeting Hitler in heaven.

    I find this absolutely disgusting. If I were to meet Hitler in heaven, I would have serious issues with the God. There is no way I am worshipping a God that provides a chance for Hitler to so easily enter heaven.

    Hitler's crimes HAVE to be worked out via Karma. That is justice. We may not know how exactly Hitler's soul pays for Hitler's crimes. But that is an epistemological issue. We dont NEED to know the details. Per Karma, his soul WILL pay. That is guaranteed.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    January 2010
    Location
    tadvishno paramam padam
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,168
    Rep Power
    2543

    Re: Hitler and why Abrahamic soteriology sucks

    My thoughts are that we should stop lamenting on Christianity.

    In Hinduism we have similar beliefs, the bhagavad gita says:

    Antakale cha mameva smaran muktva kalevaram, yah prayati sa madbhavam yati nasty atra samsayah (8.5): “Whoever contemplates My Glorious Being while leaving this body will be inundated with that Being after death.”

    The Bhagavatam tells the story of Ajamila who is freed from his sins only uttering the word "Narayana".

    In the Vishnu Purana it is mentioned that rituals and prayaschitta can absolve bad karma. Many Hindus belief that taking a dip in the ganges will absolve sins.

    A lot of arguments against abrahamics made by Hindus are blindly taken from atheists.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    1,278
    Rep Power
    1646

    Re: Hitler and why Abrahamic soteriology sucks

    Yes, the BG does say that. But I think, in general, that cannot be taken literally. Karma Phala will HAVE to be worked out regardless of "beliefs". It is action that burns sins and not beliefs.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    January 2010
    Location
    tadvishno paramam padam
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,168
    Rep Power
    2543

    Re: Hitler and why Abrahamic soteriology sucks

    There is indeed a difference, because in Hinduism karma is just like fire, it burns whether you belief in it or not. In the case of Ajamila, he did not say Narayana with faith, but was only calling out the name of his son. He still was absolved of his sins. In the story of Shivaratri, the hunter did not know he was offering bilva leaves to Shiva, but he still got the result of Shiva Ratri Vrata. So far the differences, but the obvious similarity is that Hinduism also offers the opportunity to absolve sins, even through such simple acts as calling out a name or remembering. If you tell your atheists friends about it, they will not hesitate to smack you down as much as they would do to a Christian.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    September 2010
    Age
    41
    Posts
    55
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Hitler and why Abrahamic soteriology sucks

    The obvious problems I have with these stories you are giving of examples of people who have absolved their sins by praying/repenting to god, is none of these are historical people, they are mythological. I really hate it when Hindus cite from a mythological stories to back up their argument on something. A fundamentalist Hindu pandit gave me a story from the Puranas of some bramachari who was forced to reincarnate again to live the life of a householder to support his argument that I must get married in life, I cannot reject marriage.

    There is an obvious ethical problem in the OP, which needs a better answer. If somebody like Hitler who was instrumental in killing 6 million jews can get salvation at the end of their life simply by professing faith god in his last hour, then that makes such a god absurdly unjust. Allow me to illustrate:

    If entry into heaven is predicated by faith in god then an atheist who saves 6 million jews will get eternal damnation, but Hitler who kills 6 million jews will get salvation.
    If entry into heaven is predicated by faith in god or action, then both an atheist who saves 6 million jews and Hitler who kills 6 million jews will get salvation.

    The above are both cases of injustice. The only just case would be if entry into heaven is predicated by action only. In which case an atheist who saves 6 million jews can never be equal with Hitler who kills 6 million jews.

    Now how do we reconcile the statement in the Gita that if one thinks of god in the last hour of their life they will attain to him? The condition here is that one must be able to think of god at the last hour, but perhaps that is impossible for somebody who is not yet expunged of sin or desire. If one still has sin or desire remaining with them in the last hour, then it the desire or sin they think of, and not god. Thus it is impossible for somebody like Hitler to think of god in the last hour.

    If entry into heaven/salvation is purely predicated by action then there is no possibility of being granted grace or forgiveness, only ones action alone can absolve previous actions. If Hitler's soul kills 6 million jews, but then in the next life saves 6 million lives, does the soul still have to incur the penalty of killing 6 million jews or is its karmic balance clear? The karmic balance should be clear.

    However, are there alternative ways other than moral action topurify ones sin? In Yoga it is believed that yoga can purify ones sin. If Hitler meditated intensely he can also absolve his sins by burning up the storehouse of samskaras(a burnt seed cannot germinate) Likewise, if he practiced bhakti or karma he can do the same.
    Last edited by Surya Deva; 04 February 2012 at 04:43 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    mrityuloka
    Age
    49
    Posts
    3,728
    Rep Power
    332

    Re: Hitler and why Abrahamic soteriology sucks

    Namaste,
    In chapter 2 Gita it is explained that it is not the killing that is the sin in itself but the intent and if that killing is in accord with ones duty. When speaking of hitler one must look at his intent and not only action. God has already explained that in Gita. Every action is judged by the karmic law in terms of accordance with ones duty.
    That said, I agree with the op. I refuse to accept the heaven in which criminals are sitting with god. To that end I reject such an unjust, egoist and foolish god.
    satay

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •