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Thread: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

  1. #21
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    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker123 View Post
    Swami Dayananda Saraswathi (not the Arya Samaj founder) in his bio states that when he was growing up in 1930s in an orthodox brahmin family in a small village near Tanjore no one around him knew anything about Upanishads! This suggests that knowledge of Upanishads was uncommon even among brahmins.
    What you offer may be true. Yet it is one point in time, no? Pending who you read the upaniṣad-s date back to 800 to 200 B.C, some even say 6,000 B.C. . So if some brahmins around the 1930's where not aware or conversant with the upaniṣad-s at that time, this could be so, yet it is one data point in time.

    Now that said, many śāstra-s are communcated and brought foward via the oral tradition. So it is hard to say when the upaniṣad-s started in this vein or how long it took to spead. Yet it is my humble opinion that these works (upaniṣad-s) were ~privilaged~ to various groups and territories. Like any great knowlege it begins to spread.

    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

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  2. #22
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    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    we are fighting on a unnecessary and never-solving question based upon the HISTORY BOOKS THROWN UPON US BY BRITISH/WESTERN/GERMAN HISTORIANS-PHILOSOPHERS to make India their eternal destination for Imperialism.

    First what does it mean by Vedas.Is it certain collection of Sanskrit Slokas patented by the original writer,even the meaning,subjects also patented. Vedas became known after it was compiled By veda Vyasa at end of Dwapara.

    VEDAS IS ETERNAL,so it can never be 2000BC old.It may have been compiled at such time.But it has been there sine begining of Satya-yuga.The term APAURUSEYA itself emphasize that its the knowledge,not any perticular book/slokas which we call Veda.

    Before it was existing as WISDOM in the form of Rituals,Jnana and way to Mokhsa. These knowledge was being told to the seekers in the easiest language to them according to culture,language of the region.These Wisdom was being told in the form of Stories,slokas,puranic stories,legends,Agams and also in the form of pure sanskrit upanishadic ways.

    How any person on earth can say that wisdom in vedic study is different from saivites/tantrik"S Agama/yogis books or teachings.Its knowledge that has been always same,but given to seekers according to their strength/ability and taste/choice.

    Its absurd to tell that Upanishad was the hidden property of few brahmins.

    Hinduism is always about NIBRITI AND PRABRITI PATH. Only few peoplesg bother about Prabriti dharma ,as they start questioning about life,death,truth and search the path of liberation.They are only one to show interest in study Vedas/scriptures.

    Those with Prabriti dharma are happy and well engaged with worldly enjoyment and action without bothering about existence of such books or knowledge.

    only after suffering/getting frustrated from worldly knowledge they search for such knowledge.

    AHAM-BRAHMASMI IS NEVER MEANT FOR A HOUSEHOLD,ITS ONLY MEANT FOR A VEDANTIK SANNYASI WHO IS ARMOURED EITH SAT-SAMPAT.

    If a household will be falsely convinced with AHAM-BRAHMASMI will be un-social nuisance and create all sort of adharma.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

  3. #23

    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    Namaste all.

    Is it, as the professor suggests, a fairly common Hindu attitude? To consider the Upaniṣads mostly unnecessary to religious practice and study, and/or to largely ignore them? This tale made me sad. But do you think it speaks only of the London community, or might someone addressing a modern Brahmin group anywhere encounter the same response?
    In the current age of the Kali Yuga, the traditional view is that it is considered harder for mankind to comprehend the Vedas (including the Upanishads), so subsidary texts like the Puranas, Itihasas, Tantras, etc. are instead reccomended for his/her study. Generally speaking, only the acharyas, sanyasins, and a very limited number of traditional Brahmin families have continued with the study of the Upanishads. With the rise of Neo-Hindu, and "Vedic revivalist" movements, the study of the Upanishads has begun to spread to the common man, but generally speaking most Hindus do not bother with the study of the Upanishads.

    A non brahmin will not be accepted to study in the vedic tradition, not in the past and not today, it is open to a single community, even among these, only a few, today as well as in in the past, have had the time, resources and dedication to find a valid Guru and master this topic.
    Certainly at least since the time of Adi Shankaracharya, study of Sruti shastra has been limited to the twice born (dvija) varna, and often only to men. But if I'm not mistaken, this includes men of the Kshatriya, and Vaishya varna. The Brahmins were the only varna qualified to preform agnihotra, but the Kshatriya and Vaishya communities could study the Vedas under their tutelage, and employed the Brahmins to help them preform agnihotra.

    Women, though generally not considered fit in medieval India to study the Vedas preform Yajnas etc. were clearly aloud to in the past. Various female rishis like Gargi, Lopamudra, etc. had mastered study of The Vedas. Likewise in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad a ritual is given for a husband and wife to preform should they wish to give birth to a daughter who is to be effecient in the Vedas. I don't have the exact verse number on hand, but if anyone would like me to dig it up for them I will gladly do so.

    Now, where the discrepency lies on who can study the Vedas, is if the Sudra is entitled to study of the Vedas. Even in the Vedas themselves (Vedas here refering to the 4 Samhitas, the Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads, and Brahma Sutras) there are contradictory statements about a Sudra's right to study the Vedas, and in the Smriti Sastra this difference of opinions is also present. In Shukla Yajur Veda 26.2 we find
    That I to all the people may address this salutary speech,
    To priest and nobleman, Sûdra and Arya, to one of our own
    kin and to the stranger.
    Dear may I be to Gods and guerdon-giver. Fulfilled be this
    my hope: be that my portion!
    Which would indicate both Sudras, and those considered outside the Vedic fold were eligable for study of the Sruti. They (like the Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas) could not preform Vedic Yajna without the help of the Brahmins, this is true, and in the Mahabharata we see the sudra Paijavana, does indeed employ Brahmins in helping him preform agnihotra. Now, various other Smriti texts bar sudras from studying the Vedas, and in the Brahma Sutras there is a small group of verses declaring Sudras can not study Sruti. So, whether or not Sudras can study the Veda, is a matter of debate, based on how one interprets the various verses which seemingly either allow or disallow the Sudra from studying Sruti.

    At any rate the point I'm trying to make is that both the Neo-Hindu view, and the more traditional view about who can and can't study the Vedas have their basis in shastra, and either side could be considered valid.

  4. #24

    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    Namaste all,

    Please excuse my ignorance towards these matters; if I might be so bold as to add a thought to this discourse; Is it not the second birth of a Brahman which enables a clear vision of that which the Upanishads and Vedas portray?

    As Baobobtree has indicated, is this not more difficult/painful in Kali Yuga?


    praNAma

    mana

  5. #25
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    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baobobtree View Post
    Namaste all.

    In the current age of the Kali Yuga, the traditional view is that it is considered harder for mankind to comprehend the Vedas (including the Upanishads), so subsidary texts like the Puranas, Itihasas, Tantras, etc. are instead reccomended for his/her study. Generally speaking, only the acharyas, sanyasins, and a very limited number of traditional Brahmin families have continued with the study of the Upanishads. With the rise of Neo-Hindu, and "Vedic revivalist" movements, the study of the Upanishads has begun to spread to the common man, but generally speaking most Hindus do not bother with the study of the Upanishads.

    Certainly at least since the time of Adi Shankaracharya, study of Sruti shastra has been limited to the twice born (dvija) varna, and often only to men. But if I'm not mistaken, this includes men of the Kshatriya, and Vaishya varna. The Brahmins were the only varna qualified to preform agnihotra, but the Kshatriya and Vaishya communities could study the Vedas under their tutelage, and employed the Brahmins to help them preform agnihotra.

    Women, though generally not considered fit in medieval India to study the Vedas preform Yajnas etc. were clearly aloud to in the past. Various female rishis like Gargi, Lopamudra, etc. had mastered study of The Vedas. Likewise in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad a ritual is given for a husband and wife to preform should they wish to give birth to a daughter who is to be effecient in the Vedas. I don't have the exact verse number on hand, but if anyone would like me to dig it up for them I will gladly do so.

    Now, where the discrepency lies on who can study the Vedas, is if the Sudra is entitled to study of the Vedas. Even in the Vedas themselves (Vedas here refering to the 4 Samhitas, the Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads, and Brahma Sutras) there are contradictory statements about a Sudra's right to study the Vedas, and in the Smriti Sastra this difference of opinions is also present. In Shukla Yajur Veda 26.2 we find Which would indicate both Sudras, and those considered outside the Vedic fold were eligable for study of the Sruti. They (like the Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas) could not preform Vedic Yajna without the help of the Brahmins, this is true, and in the Mahabharata we see the sudra Paijavana, does indeed employ Brahmins in helping him preform agnihotra. Now, various other Smriti texts bar sudras from studying the Vedas, and in the Brahma Sutras there is a small group of verses declaring Sudras can not study Sruti. So, whether or not Sudras can study the Veda, is a matter of debate, based on how one interprets the various verses which seemingly either allow or disallow the Sudra from studying Sruti.

    At any rate the point I'm trying to make is that both the Neo-Hindu view, and the more traditional view about who can and can't study the Vedas have their basis in shastra, and either side could be considered valid.
    Thanks, Baobobtree for your valuable inputs.

    Sudras can do this ... can't do this ... etc. etc. is a unending useless debate. We don't know what happened in the past and present is certainly more important than the past. I was refuting MH's assertion that Upanishads are not studied by the Hindu as "Only Brahmins were allowed to study Upanishads" . There is some smriti's support to this view point. However, the Shrutis don't support this idea. VajrasUchuka Upanishad even goes to the extent of challenging the Varna by birth notion.

    Again, I won't go into details of what the various scriptures say on this issue as it has been discussed on this forum umpteen number of times. What I wanted to say at least today there is no ban on any caste/varna to study Vedas/Vedanta. These books are freely available in the market in India and anyone who has money in the pocket can buy and study these scriptures. We should remember that these Upanishads were studied even by the Muslims in India & also the English & that was long long back in 16th-17th century. The today's Hindu society is far more tolerant than it was in the past.

    Actually, the usual understanding in the Hindu society is that the Upanishads and some other scriptures based on Upanishads are not for the house-holders but for the SannyAsis and the parents are afraid that if their children read those scriptures they would turn towards SannyAs.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #26
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    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baobobtree View Post
    They (like the Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas) could not preform Vedic Yajna without the help of the Brahmins, this is true, and in the Mahabharata we see the sudra Paijavana, does indeed employ Brahmins in helping him preform agnihotra. Now, various other Smriti texts bar sudras from studying the Vedas, and in the Brahma Sutras there is a small group of verses declaring Sudras can not study Sruti. So, whether or not Sudras can study the Veda, is a matter of debate, based on how one interprets the various verses which seemingly either allow or disallow the Sudra from studying Sruti.

    At any rate the point I'm trying to make is that both the Neo-Hindu view, and the more traditional view about who can and can't study the Vedas have their basis in shastra, and either side could be considered valid.
    Namaste

    Thanks for the input, i will correct my posting accordingly, instead of "study" to "study and practise", (which is what i meant: study in a vedapatashala) when i mentioned "brahmins" other wise i already used the term "non dvijas."

    Of course there is and was always the possibility to find passages in shruti or smrti that would theoretically allow other than dvijyas to study the Vedas, but that was rarely the case in practical life at least in the last few thousand years and since the question was not why so many people study the vedas and upanishads but the question was why so few study those shastras, i did not consider this relevant for the topic.

    That does not mean that i disagree with anything you wrote just that i wrote about what actually happened and what was the reason why the upanishads are only studied by a minority of Hindus, and did not write about what theoretically could have happened or what is and was theoretically allowed, or not allowed, when it was very rarely or not at all put into practice.
    Even today it is most unusual and even called a "historical event" when a non dvija is admitted for the serious study of the Vedas. It happened last year and such a one time event, only an ecxception made for a single person, is nonetheless called a "historical event" this i hope clarifies that it is nonsense to pretend that people from all races, communities or gender were in the past or today welcome to study the Upanishads.
    @D....e= That Tom Dick or Harry can today buy a paperback edition of the upanishads and read it, or enrol at "arya Samaj" for a crash course in vedic revisionism, this is not what i meant when i wrote about "study of the upanishads."

    Swamy Sivananda Sharma's Sringeri Math Enrolment - A Historical event
    21/11/2011 12:24:59 HK

    Alapuzha: History is created again from Kerala When the disciple of Acharya Narendra Bhushan Sivananda Sharma get enrolment in Sringeri Sri Sankara Ashram in Karnataka.Sivananda Sharma’s enrolment is so special because he belonged to Paraya Community one of the Scheduled Caste.

    Sivananda Sharma is the youngest son of Shri P R Kunchan and Smt. Thankamma . He was attracted to spiritual world when he was doing his Pre-Degree education and took upanayanam under the guidance of Acharya Narendra Bhushan.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 09 February 2012 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #27

    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    What you offer may be true. Yet it is one point in time, no? Pending who you read the upaniṣad-s date back to 800 to 200 B.C, some even say 6,000 B.C. . So if some brahmins around the 1930's where not aware or conversant with the upaniṣad-s at that time, this could be so, yet it is one data point in time.

    Now that said, many śāstra-s are communcated and brought foward via the oral tradition. So it is hard to say when the upaniṣad-s started in this vein or how long it took to spead. Yet it is my humble opinion that these works (upaniṣad-s) were ~privilaged~ to various groups and territories. Like any great knowlege it begins to spread.

    praṇām
    Agree. But even today in my interactions I find that the study of Upanishads is limited among brahmins and non-brahmins alike. A non-scientific guess would put it at 20% and 5% respectively. As Anirvan pointed it could be that way because most people are not looking for Moksha. So they dont really study Upanishads. But I see more people of all backgrounds getting interested in this.
    Last edited by Seeker123; 10 February 2012 at 12:10 PM.

  8. #28

    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Namaste

    Even today it is most unusual and even called a "historical event" when a non dvija is admitted for the serious study of the Vedas. It happened last year and such a one time event, only an ecxception made for a single person, is nonetheless called a "historical event" this i hope clarifies that it is nonsense to pretend that people from all races, communities or gender were in the past or today welcome to study the Upanishads.
    .
    First of all today one need not join a Mutt and become a Sanyasi to do a serious study of Upanishads. Many traditional sages conduct daily/weekly lectures in India and abroad. Weekend camps are conducted. In the few ones I have been to none of them have asked for caste. I have seen people from all back grounds there. If you attend a few and get to know the organizers you can talk to the Swamis as well. Some of them are very accessible and some may not be. The ones I have interacted with have not asked for my caste.

  9. #29
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    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker123 View Post
    First of all today one need not join a Mutt and become a Sanyasi to do a serious study of Upanishads. Many traditional sages conduct daily/weekly lectures in India and abroad. Weekend camps are conducted. In the few ones I have been to none of them have asked for caste. I have seen people from all back grounds there. If you attend a few and get to know the organizers you can talk to the Swamis as well. Some of them are very accessible and some may not be. The ones I have interacted with have not asked for my caste.
    1. Please you people realise that i have been writing about the history of India and the historical reasons why even today few people study the upanishads and practice the vedic traditions.

    2. Enroling with Arya Samaj, visting centres like Ramakrishna Mutt, Self help/realization fellowships, whatever kind of Neo Hindu sages you may name that do weekend crash courses, etc this is not the traditional way Upanishads are studied and have been studied in the past. It is a very recent development that started with western colonialism and western interest in the study of Upanishads and the printing of translations that were available to all. Modern neo Hindu organisations will always only ask you for your money and service, not for your caste that is maybe becaused they all only desire your best
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 09 February 2012 at 03:02 PM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Modern study of Upaniṣads?

    That is very true, with the doing away of caste based on birth, a new caste system has arised that is based on your financial position.

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