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Thread: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

  1. #1

    Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Namaste all,

    So I've been doing japa for over a week with this one mantra 'Aum Kreem Kalikaye Namaha' in an attempt to, shall we say, destroy my own ego.

    Since I've begun a number of rather inauspicious things have taken place, which I won't go into. However, I wonder if anyone knows more about this mantra who can inform me specifically how and in what way it is beneficial.

    Speaking personally, I find that it resonates with me. However, that may be a quick judgment call, so I welcome any and all input.

    Thanks.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    There is a few things to consider...akṣara samudaya ( अक्षर समुदय ) is one of them. That is, the union of the sound form ( i.e. the mantra) that comes together for individual use. Will it yield results ( siddhi) or not , will it yield ari ( hostile or pāpā) or not ?
    You see, not every mantra's vibration is for every person. Just like our body types, some foods are nourshing for one, and not for the other.


    So , how does one know ? When the mantra is given by the teacher one can have confidence it will apply; when picking from a book, one will not be sure if it is applicable. I have found this myself in my studies. I also found some mantra's that yield little results years ago can now be used today. So there is a time factor, a maturity factor, etc. to this. This knowledge is called mantraśāstra.


    Some say there are 70 million mantra-s; This is called out in the Mālinīvijayottara tantra (1.18). Later the book calls out that Śiva has appointed 35 million mantras for use. Others say each word of the veda is a mantra ( which is true when one understands the word in full) . In any case there are many more mantras available then one individual may make use of.

    Within the knowledge of mantra-śastra there is ṣaḍkarma ( some write ṣaṭ-karma) meaning 6 actions or intent (purpose) of mantra-s.
    Are there others? Yes, but for this post let me offer the following.

    Here are the 6
    • śānti शान्ति - peace. Mantra-s for general well being, and removing one from the cycle of rebirth.
    • vaśīkāran or vaśīkāra वशीकार - bringing into control; subjugation; We see the word vaśī + kāra : vaśī or holding others in submission to the will + kāra making , doing , working , a maker ; Some may call this vidheya - to make obedient.
      This was called out above . Mantra-s used to captivate another with-or-without their knowing.
    • stambhanam or stambha स्तम्भ - fixedness , stiffness , rigidity ,paralysis , stupefaction . This is for creating obstructions.
    • vidveśana विद्वेशन vid + veśana: vid to get or procure for + veśana - that act of entering ; one can consider veśī or piercing. This mantra type creates a split ( or difference ~ dissention) between others ( people, groups, etc).
    • ucchatanā ucca + tanā : ucca उच्च is high , lofty , elevated , yet also intense , violent + tanā तन uninterrupted succession ; This mantra type is for creating aversion between others ( people, groups, etc.)
    • marana or mara मर dying , death. From this word you can see this mantra type is death-causing.
    I support the uplifting approach , śānti. The benefits go to the practitioner and the environment. It brings a life-supporting influence to the family of man. This is how I was taught and I stay with the program.
    Some may be using a mantra and not know its influence and this can bring the wrong influence (cause mischief) , even though the intent was well-meant. Others may be using a mantra with no results, it is dead. What do I mean?

    Mantra-s need to be enlivened , brought to life and there are multiple 'features' to this which I choose not to lay out. But that said, the value of receiving a mantra from a proper instructor ( teacher, guru, etc.) is of great value; Given by the guru this enlivening process has been accomplished and the mantra is ready for application.

    What is needed is the proper application and purascarana (number of repetitions) for siddhi ( sidh = to turn out well i.e. success).
    This is the value of teacher-student ( guru-śiṣya ) relationship, as the guru brings the knowledge of the paramparā (tradition, lineage) to use in the proper mantra application.

    praṇām


    words


    • akṣara - in this application means syllable or phoneme regarding saṃskṛt sound forms; this word also means imperishableand is another name for śiva or viṣṇu
    • samudaya - coming together , union , junction , combination , collection , assemblage , multitude , aggregation , aggregate i.e. to collect or assemble


    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    Namaste all,

    So I've been doing japa for over a week with this one mantra 'Aum Kreem Kalikaye Namaha' in an attempt to, shall we say, destroy my own ego.

    Since I've begun a number of rather inauspicious things have taken place, which I won't go into. However, I wonder if anyone knows more about this mantra who can inform me specifically how and in what way it is beneficial.

    Speaking personally, I find that it resonates with me. However, that may be a quick judgment call, so I welcome any and all input.

    Thanks.
    Namaste
    This Mantra should not be used for japa without Guru upadesha, it contains so called bija mantras and it is a mantra of a tantric Mahavidya two reason why in this case Guru guidance is needed. So called Nama mantras (divine names) are best used for bhakti and meditation, here one does not need to comply to special rules and regulations. Nothing is needed except devotion. This is different with the Kali mantra of your choice. To use it you need to conform to Rules.

    The topic of tantric shatkarmas or 6 magical acts of sorcery is a completly different subject that does not apply at all in your situation

    The so called shatkarmas that means 6 Mantra application that are mentionend in Yajvans post apply only to so called tantric kamya prayogas, that means Mantras and ritual procedures for a specific purpose that can be lawfully used only in uneasy times by select tantric specialists to control misfortunes, and pacify enemies. These 6 acts, the shatkarmas, are not at all related to mantras used in a bhakti path or used for spiritual or uplifting purposes.

    Practise of any of the shatkarmas including "shanti" is restricted to very few experienced people and should be only done in times of dire need, political unrest, wars, famine, sickness or other severe misfortune, and one must attend to strict rules and regulations. Many do not use wise judgement like this. Therefore when one is confronted with the word "shatkarma" what is usually meant is witchcraft or black magic (abhichara) and not the legitimate use. It is a mystery to me why Yajvan is associating "shatkarma" with the spiritual path or the "shanti" shatkarma with Mantras used in sadhana, while "shanti" really denotes Mantras used for pacifying evil influences and remedy sicknesses or generally those for attracting good fortune.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 18 February 2012 at 06:47 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Namaste
    This Mantra should not be used for japa without Guru upadesha, it contains so called bija mantras and it is a mantra of a tantric Mahavidya two reason why in this case Guru guidance is needed. So called Nama mantras (divine names) are best used for bhakti and meditation, here one does not need to comply to special rules and regulations. Nothing is needed except devotion. This is different with the Kali mantra of your choice. To use it you need to conform to Rules.

    The topic of tantric shatkarmas or 6 magical acts of sorcery is a completly different subject that does not apply at all in your situation

    The so called shatkarmas that means 6 Mantra application that are mentionend in Yajvans post apply only to so called tantric kamya prayogas, that means Mantras and ritual procedures for a specific purpose that can be lawfully used only in uneasy times by select tantric specialists to control misfortunes, and pacify enemies. These 6 acts, the shatkarmas, are not at all related to mantras used in a bhakti path or used for spiritual or uplifting purposes.

    Practise of any of the shatkarmas including "shanti" is restricted to very few experienced people and should be only done in times of dire need, political unrest, wars, famine, sickness or other severe misfortune, and one must attend to strict rules and regulations. Many do not use wise judgement like this. Therefore when one is confronted with the word "shatkarma" what is usually meant is witchcraft or black magic (abhichara) and not the legitimate use. It is a mystery to me why Yajvan is associating "shatkarma" with the spiritual path or the "shanti" shatkarma with Mantras used in sadhana, while "shanti" really denotes Mantras used for pacifying evil influences and remedy sicknesses or generally those for attracting good fortune.
    Fair enough. I am curious though, if you know any more writings about these "shatkarmas." Legitimate sources, of course. It is interesting you speak of ill fortune and desperate times, I am myself experiencing some difficulties in various areas of my life.

    Could you recommend an appropriate Kali mantra for myself? I do not have much qualification, but in a way I feel the bhakti path has waned for me. It will be reawakened in time, I'm sure. But I just don't know exactly what path to turn to, at the moment.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Mahahrada, can you give some more information on how bhakti sadhana is performed by the uninitiated in Shakta marga? What kind of symbols can be kept? I have heard that the Shri Meru is prohibited to keep for the uninitiated. In another post you recommended someone to do panchopachara puja. The mantras for this also have single syllable mantras in them: vaM apaathmanaa jalam kalpayaami, laM prithivyaathmanaa gandham kalpayaami etc. Are the single syllables in these mantras different from the beejaksharas that are prohibited for laypeople?

    You are absolutely right that the shatkarmas are not to be messed with, there are many unqualified people who abuse these methods for their personal gain. Many books get published with mantras from the Indrajala and other sources of black magic. It is really irresponsible how these books are sold on the market to every Jane and Joe. They even put these mantras in the yearly panchangas and other astrological publications.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 19 February 2012 at 01:49 AM.

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    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    Fair enough. I am curious though, if you know any more writings about these "shatkarmas." Legitimate sources, of course. It is interesting you speak of ill fortune and desperate times, I am myself experiencing some difficulties in various areas of my life.
    Like i wrote, i do not understand why Yajvan recommends to use mantras for sorcery (shatkarmas), only very few specialists can use these mantras safely and for the benefit of society and because there is so much Misuse in my opinion Shatkarmas are not a good topic for Hindu Dharma Forum or study.
    Could you recommend an appropriate Kali mantra for myself? I do not have much qualification, but in a way I feel the bhakti path has waned for me. It will be reawakened in time, I'm sure. But I just don't know exactly what path to turn to, at the moment.
    I would generally recommend so called Nama Mantras, for those that do not have a Guru, these are Mantras that do not contain Bijas or the Pranava but Jaya, or Namo and Namah, like for instance Sri Rama Jaya Rama Jaya Jaya Rama or Sri Ramaya namah.

    There are also collection of Names of Kali you can use like her 100 names or 1000 names.

    But maybe even more important in the case of Kali is the correct bhava that is that you should consider her as a loving and protective mother only. To look at her in other aspects including a destructiveform as i assume you did judging from what you wrote " shall we say, destroy my own ego. " is not without risk so you better stick to benevolent aspects like dakshinkali, or better yet focus on Durga.

  7. #7

    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    destroy my own ego.
    If you think you can set out to destroy your own ego, the problem is right there. Bija mantras without upadesha etc are also factors. If you prefer atma-prataya, self effort to achieve something, tantra-mantra is not the path for you.

    Ignore satkarma suggestions. It is quite dangerous for innocent readers of this forum who take these empty talks seriously.
    Last edited by sm78; 19 February 2012 at 09:42 AM.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    Mahahrada, can you give some more information on how bhakti sadhana is performed by the uninitiated in Shakta marga? What kind of symbols can be kept? I have heard that the Shri Meru is prohibited to keep for the uninitiated. In another post you recommended someone to do panchopachara puja. The mantras for this also have single syllable mantras in them: vaM apaathmanaa jalam kalpayaami, laM prithivyaathmanaa gandham kalpayaami etc. Are the single syllables in these mantras different from the beejaksharas that are prohibited for laypeople?

    You are absolutely right that the shatkarmas are not to be messed with, there are many unqualified people who abuse these methods for their personal gain. Many books get published with mantras from the Indrajala and other sources of black magic. It is really irresponsible how these books are sold on the market to every Jane and Joe. They even put these mantras in the yearly panchangas and other astrological publications.
    Namaste Sahasranama

    Generally the Shakta path is non dualistic and therefore it is less likely that a serious shakta would conceive of shakti as different from his own self. Nonetheless it is true that a lot of people choose different aspects of shakti as a focus for bhakti and some have become quite famous like Ramakrishnas and his bhakti for Kali. Of course if people choose that path without a Guru, they can use nama mantras and bhajans.

    But since you ask me of my personal opinion there is something special about shakti that we should think about in the context of bhakti.

    If we think for one moment about what it means that the sanskrit word "shakti" means translated into english "power" it becomes clear that every bhakta will always worship not only his choosen devata but his shaktis also.

    Shakti can never be separeted from Shiva like the sun cannot be understood separetly from his powers or shaktis light and heat. While the source remains one the effects or powers can be many. Even a stick you cut from a tree is a limited "shiva" and can have many "shaktis" or powers, you can hit someone with this stick or you can use it to support yourself while walking, you could also use it to kick a ball around, all these are the shaktis, the powers of this stick.

    On a larger scale also Krishna or Vishnu or Shiva and any other deity will always be worshipped through his attributes and the effects they have, also in general, their glory, their divine aisvarya does only become manifest as a shakti, a power, which means every bhakta will worship the different shaktis or powers of their choosen deity anyways, sometimes without ever noticing it.

    Now what happens if one does develops bhakti to shakti as existing separete from his own self as well as separete from an individual devata, a holder of power?

    Lets get back to the example of the stick used either as a prop or as a protective weapon or a tool, being devoted to the shakti of the stick, without noticing the stick, you get support for walking or a beating, or you are kicked around. If you don´t know there is this stick and only feel the impact of its powers, its shaktis one after the other you don´t understand why you first get support and then you get hit and after that you get kicked around by this shakti.

    Many shakti bhaktas are confused about that and think that this unpredictabilty is some kind of hidden blessing. Ramprasad wrote:
    It matters not how much I call you "Mother, Mother." You hear me, but you will not listen.

    As a serious shakta tantric you will be an advaitan not a dualist bhakta, you will see shakti either as your mind, your body (including the subtle bodies) or on the lowest level of qualification as the whole universe and its objects. The first and the second options are of course always non dual, the third option is also non dual for most of the shaktas since they would look at the whole universe as non different from the self, and everything whatever appears in their mind or exists as the outside, as being nothing but aspects of power or shakti and the sakshi, the witness of this universe not separeted from it, is understood as Shiva.

    Those others that do not qualify for the beginning level of tantric shakti sadhana, because they look at the shakti as a single entity, different from their own self, as well as from any other devata, as bhaktas usually do, without qualification for the non dual approach of the tantras, must of course take care to primarily focus their bhakti on the saumyam, the supportive and benevolent aspects of Shakti, like Lakshmi or Sarasvati or Durga since everything that exists is shakti, there are also some things in this universe one does not want to approach too close, fire has a power to make you feel warm but it can also kill, so one has to choose well and avoid the ugra devatas, the fierce and destructive aspects.

    So the general difference is, if you have bhakti to the shaktiman the holder of power, like for instance sri krishna you will be always blessed by him through his shaktis, you leave the discrimination of choice to the holder of power, with shakti bhakti you have to exert discrimination yourself, and avoid harmful fierce aspects and of course also most mantras, she herself does not differentiate for you, she is the whole universe.

    In my opinon for these reasons, shakti bhakti is more complicated than those of other devata, everybody can easily and safely worship the shakti-the power, of the attributes of their choosen deity and the shakta marga is more safe and useful for people who prefer a non dual attitude.

    Concerning the panchupachara puja i recommended, the main thing is not to be using any mantras when offering the upacharas, but the contemplation of the unity of this act of offering with the shakti, and your own self, this contemplation should lead to the understanding that the physical substances one offers to the deity are nothing but her own self, the delight of the contact of the self with their objects, through the five senses is also nothing but a sacrifice. If one understands that the self, the objects of the senses (the universe) and the activity of the sense organs are nothing but the shakti alone and she is your own self, by that puja alone you can reach the same experience, that the shakti mantra, one would receive in a diksha, is supposed to lead you to. A great problem is the lack of teachers nowadays it is hardly possible to find qualified Gurus for this path.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 19 February 2012 at 07:51 AM.

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    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    I have heard that the Shri Meru is prohibited to keep for the uninitiated. Are the single syllables in these mantras different from the beejaksharas that are prohibited for laypeople?
    I forget to answer this part because i do not consider outward objects or mantras as central to kaula dharma, these instruments are extensively used by people that have problems with the non dual approach and have to use physical props as a focus for meditation. So this is secondary. I would not say that anything is prohibited to laypeople it is only not very useful if one has no Guru to constantly remind one that Yantras are mere symbols of a higher reality and Mantras are mere instruments to help focus on the prana shakti or become aware of the unstruck Sound. If i do not recommend Mantra japa without Guru Upadesha it is because these methods will not work properly without the method of contemplation that comes with the mantra and without the shaktipat a Mantra will have no sufficient Power. No kaula Method will work without shaktipat, or transfer of power whether Meditations taken from books, like the well known Vijnanabhairavatantra, or Mudras, Kriyas, Yantras or Mantras or even study of the shastras, all these methods need transfer of power, and this shaktipat rarely happens without a Guru parampara. There is nothing that can be done about this i guess, even if it is inconvinient.

  10. #10

    Re: Dangerous Mantra Meditation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    I have heard that the Shri Meru is prohibited to keep for the uninitiated.
    I have heard this, and there may be some support in books (meru is a later concept anyway - tantras only talked about yantras), but I don't believe it. Tantras do speak about creating kavacas for those who desire for various worldly ends which are basically often inscribed yantras. So a meru prepared properly can have some good effect or no effect, but I don't see the logical connection with initiation. Initiation is needed for japa, puja etc. I agree with Mahahrada that in actual kaula dharma yantras, merus etc are of secondary importance if any. One does need to bring out the entire universe inform of deity mandala outside and do puja to it - but one can use any prop for that - there are suggestions to do the puja on murtis, hand drawn yantras, shiva linga or simply over water, mirrors, ayudhas like khadga etc etc.
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