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  1. #1

    Agree? Disagree?

    This is from Bhaktivinod Thakur's essay "Non-sectarian Vaishnava Dharma"

    As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

    "The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

    All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    This is from Bhaktivinod Thakur's essay "Non-sectarian Vaishnava Dharma"

    As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

    "The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

    All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."
    Vannakkam Kismet: Makes no sense to me, but I'm not a Vaishnava.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post

    As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

    "The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

    All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."
    Shaktas are strictly advaitan, demands are very high, this path is definitly more challenging and complicated than krishna bhakti, you are prone to make mistakes easier, you are best served with a bhakti path that can be followed without Guru upadesha and is more forgiving. But that has been now told to you several times, from several people, repeating it will not be too much useful. Krishna bhakti is an easy path, shakta path is demanding and few people are ready for it. Please do not belive that this is the easiest path, it is most hard, if your reason to begin shakti bhakti because you have a bad opinion about yourself and want to start with the lowest path i think this will be a most unfortunate decision.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 22 February 2012 at 01:44 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Shaktas are strictly advaitan, demands are very high, this path is definitly more challenging and complicated than krishna bhakti, you are prone to make mistakes easier, you are best served with a bhakti path that can be followed without Guru upadesha and is more forgiving. But that has been now told to you several times, from several people, repeating it will not be too much useful. Krishna bhakti is an easy path, shakta path is demanding and few people are ready for it. Please do not belive that this is the easiest path, it is most hard, if your reason to begin shakti bhakti because you have a bad opinion about yourself and want to start with the lowest path i think this will be a most unfortunate decision.
    This is interesting to me. I have always thought that the Mother aspect of the divine is the most benevolent and compassionate side of God. While it is the Father who is most strict and demanding. What you are saying seems to flip these positions.

    In any case, you have given me a lot to chew on, thank you MahaHrada. I will pray for God and Goddess's Mercy.

    PS, I would not say it is the "lowest" path. I would say it is the path most suited to one's psycho-physical nature in progression towards universal truth. Isn't everyone at some level different? I can't believe exceptions can't possibly be warranted.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    This is interesting to me. I have always thought that the Mother aspect of the divine is the most benevolent and compassionate side of God. While it is the Father who is most strict and demanding. What you are saying seems to flip these positions.

    In any case, you have given me a lot to chew on, thank you MahaHrada. I will pray for God and Goddess's Mercy.
    One cannot say that, it is rather the opposite there is a famous quote from the tantras Shiva is a corpse (shava) without Shakti. That is all the activity all the power is Shakti, Shiva is the peaceful witness of this activity, it also means that Shiva is never without Shakti or Shakti without Shiva. So there is no difference between Shiva and Shakti, the actor and the activity. One reason why the text you cite makes not much sense from the viewpoint of a Shaiva or Shakta only from that of a Vaishnava.

    Many important avatara of shakti like Durga, Mahatripurasundari, Bagalmukhi or Kali have appeared as warrior for the sole reason of destroying mighty asuras that the devas were not able to defeat because they lacked the power. Durga received her weapons from all of the devata that means she is the combined power (shakti) of all devas, all these male devas for a shakta are non different from the absolute Shiva. For a shaiva or a shakta, shiva is the absolute like the brahman for a vedantin. so the rules of lower and higher path as they are cited by your text do not make sense for a shaiva or shakta.
    Since the activity, dynamism and power is the domain of shakti, she is the warrior against evil that can protect her devotees.

    Bhaktas emphasize her benevolent motherly aspect mainly because it can be dangerous to focus on her nature unprepared, not because this aspect is her main role. To approach her you need to be a "vira" a hero and have a non-dual approach since you embrace the whole universe including the dissolution and destruction and only with a non dual approach this is safe and for the benefit of all.
    PS, I would not say it is the "lowest" path. I would say it is the path most suited to one's psycho-physical nature in progression towards universal truth. Isn't everyone at some level different? I can't believe exceptions can't possibly be warranted.
    No not at all, it is unsuitable for most, shakti is power and her impact is strong, the energetic influence of some ugra devatas, fierce shaktis like kali, can be harmful for an average human beings weak, impure and unprepared subtle body thats why i insist always on Guru guidance and preparation, and thats why very few are suited for that path. It is not a preliminary to anything. If you think you are not evolved enough for Vaishnava path and you can be less evolved as a shakta it is the oppositte.

    Shaktas would say that is because their path is the highest and it needs many lifetimes of following other paths before one can embark on that route.

    When Bhaktivinod Thakur says that it is the lowest path for beginners it is not an advice for his readers to follow it and only later become vaishnavas, it is because he is a Vaishnava and wants people to stay away from the Devi. Iskcon founder Prabhupada even insults all other devas as being only demigods. Especially Vaishnavas are known to insist on the absolute superioritity of their path.

    So clearly it is not meant as an advice to follow that path, quite the contrary and of course the reasons he gives, that shakti is only matter is completly baseless. Shakti is as well the energy of cid and ananda, ultimate bliss and highest conciousness, she is one with the absolute prakasha the light of conciousness, she is the self reflective aspect of this absolute conciousness, the vimarsha, the mirror.

    Advaitans whether Vedantins, Shaivas or Shaktas generally are more tolerant since they accept the idea of one universal conciousness as the background of all, and do not cling that much to name and form.

    Shaktas would say of course their path is the highest, as would Vedantins say of their path, or Shaivas of their, this is only natural, otherwise why should they follow it?
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 22 February 2012 at 06:56 PM.

  6. #6

    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    This is from Bhaktivinod Thakur's essay "Non-sectarian Vaishnava Dharma"

    As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

    "The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

    All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."
    Bhakti vinoda thakura was from Bengal and he just copied the popular bengal shakta viewpoint that Shakti worship is the culmination of worship of other deities (Ganesh, surya, vishnu/krishna & shiva). It is said that those who have already achieved success in the above devatas in their past lives after lot of toil get ready for shakti worship.

    One has to just understand this was a rationalization used by shaktas of bengal to reconcile their often mistrusted form of worship with popular smarta viewpoint.

    Bhakit Vinoda seems to be a cleaver man who picked this up and inter changed the order of the deities making shakti the start point and his brand of krishna bhakti the highest.

    If you want to do shakti worship you better follow the shakta view point. If you want to follow vaishnava follow vaishnava viewpoint. I have no interest in vaishnavism and don't know one should trust bhakti vinoda thakura. I personally find only Sri Samprdaya a reliable, authentic and proper agamic vaishnava sampradaya in the present. If I had tried vaishnavism I would have joined tenkalai sri vaishnava sect. But that would be me.

    You can ofcourse worship shakti from some vaishnava p.o.v but for that you better see up the madva sect who do worship to all sorts of deities including tribal & local serpent gurdians and yet follow strict dvaita - most strange thing to do philosophically, but since they have some mantra transmission it works for them. Gaudiya vaishnavas don't have any shakti mantra transmission and it would not work to worship shakti with Gaudiya guidance.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    If one views the literal meaning of Shakta means worshipping mother goddess and Vaishnab means worshipping krishna,it will be naive and immature.The devotee who loves and worship Mata kali or mata durga in the form of dear mother and with raga-marga ,how can one tell him as shakta???

    When Ramakrishna was worshipping maa kali initial part of his sadhna,it was purely raga-marga.it can"t be said as shakta. Again when during his 64 yogini sadhna,he was pure shakta.when he entered Nirvikalpa samadhi under guidance of Tatapuri,he was pure advitin-jnana marga.

    When he became immersed in union with love of maa kali again,he was pure vaishnab.

    So its the propaganda of some sectarian vaishnab that those who worship Male god,that too the avtars of Vishnu are only vaishnab is totally un-wise and irrational.

    What I have studied and what i was taught by my Gurudev ,its rationally different definitions regarding vaishnaba and shakta.

    Shakta--- means the stage of sadhaka.when one is in struggling stage,one has not conquered the 6 senses and prakriti,he is shakta. Shakta means in search of shakti,the power to conquer one"s own prakriti,senses and ascend to gain knowledge.This is equivalent to KUNDALINI UTHHAN.
    So a shakta can be follower of Tantra or yoga or bhakti or jnana marga.
    In contemporary sense ,shakta means upasan of SIVA OR MAA in the way described in tantrik texts.but again in present time,majority of worships in temples,even bhakti marga is followed as instructed by Tantra.Go to Jagannatha pur or Guruvayur,padmanabha or any where,everything is according to tantra.

    Vishnaba- the state of pure bhakti.its not state when a beginner starting chanting name or doing kirtana. Its a state when the devotee is able to see his beloved sitting in the heart of all including him,has get rid of Maya/senses forever.The devotee is in the higher realm of consciousness where he is eligible to feel and love God as his own.We at a lower level of consciousness can"t able to love god as man can"t love god,but only becoming god,one can relate the loving relationship with god.

    So in all practical sense,how can one reject one"s loving relationship with goddess mother or fatherly love with sadasiva??? They are as valid and equal devotion as one has with Rama or Krishna.

    One must remember Siva is known as Maha-vaishnaba,where as when Lord Rama was doing Durga puja to gain shakti to kill Ravan,he was maha-shakta.
    Even when you look at the KATYANI BRATA performed by Radharani and Gopis,to get their desired love towards Krishna,one will realize that without shakti,jnana and devotion is impossible.Thats why they call " without shakti,mukti is second to impossible" .same thing can be said to bhakti too.without shakti,bhakti is impossible.
    Last edited by anirvan; 23 February 2012 at 01:20 AM. Reason: ad
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    Namaste Kismet,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    This is from Bhaktivinod Thakur's essay "Non-sectarian Vaishnava Dharma"

    As I am curious to my sva-dharma or psycho-mental constitution, I am wondering what this may imply for me in tandem with my Durga worship.

    "The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or ones prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. Inquiring about truth of the material world is called Sakta-dharma, because the predominating deity of the material world is goddess Durga.

    All behavior and practice instructed in Sakta-dharma is helpful only in the preliminary stage. Such behavior and practice is meant to bring one closer to spiritual life, and materialistic people may be attracted by this only until they begin to inquire about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Sakta-dharma is the living entities initial spiritual endeavor, and it is extremely essential for people of that level. When the preliminary stage is further strengthened, one attains the next level. One then considers the energy of work and the superiority of heat over dull matter, and one therefore accepts the sun-god, who is the source of heat, as one's worshipable deity. At that time, Saura-dharma is awakened. Later, when one considers even heat as dull matter and animal consciousness as superior, one attains the third stage, Ganapatya-dharma. In the fourth gross stage, Lord Siva is worshiped as the pure consciousness of the living entities, and Saiva-dharma manifests. In the fifth stage, the consciousness of the living entity worships the supreme consciousness, and thus Vaisnava-dharma is manifest. By nature, there are five types of paramarthic dharmas, or spiritual duties, which have been known throughout the world by different names at different times. If one considers all the different dharmas that are current in India and abroad, one can see that they certainly fall within these five categories."
    Now I understand your confusion which showed in another thread on Beej-mantra-japa of Maa KAli. Let me tell you my views :

    a) You should not go to Sri Bhakti Vinod Thakur who is a Vaishnava for learning about ShAkTa path. What is the authority on which his these assertions are made ? There cannot be any acceptable authority ... as it is a comparison between various sects ... the only authority acceptable here can be Shruti & nothing less than this. Which Shruti says all what he wants to say ? None.

    My dear friend, the Ultimate Reality can be reached by ANY valid Path. It is nothing but sheer ignorance to say what Sri Bhakti Vinod Thakur says in above quoted para. Let me tell you that most of the Hindus (Vaishnavas and the non-sectarian Hindus) are worshipers of Vishnu and they don't take advice from Sri Bhakti Vinod Thakur on what to do.

    b)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet
    This is interesting to me. I have always thought that the Mother aspect of the divine is the most benevolent and compassionate side of God. While it is the Father who is most strict and demanding. What you are saying seems to flip these positions.
    It all depends on the Bhakta's perspective. What we are talking about here is the usual aspect of the form of Mother Goddess but it can change by intense devotion of the Bhakta as happened in case of Sri Ramkrishna and Mother Goddess KAli. But we can't compare ourselves to Sri Ramkrishna just like that. Are we as pure at heart as Sri Ramkrishna was ... he was as innocent as a child throughout his life.

    If your natural inclination is towards Mother aspect of God, please go for it without any doubts and worries. Just take a plunge with full faith in the love of Maa ... you are sure to receive her love the way you want. ... But don't be afraid on the path and don't be perturbed by small hurdles coming your way ... slowly everything will be OK. However, while you choose to do that, please have faith in your devotion alone ... please don't mix-up your SAdhnA with some mantra/rituals of ShAkta path about which you have no complete knowledge.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    My dear friend, the Ultimate Reality can be reached by ANY valid Path.
    Wonderful...
    A valid path is key for the conversation.

    praām

    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #10

    Re: Agree? Disagree?

    Namaste, All...

    I wish to thank you all for the information you have provided me. I realize now that I still have a great deal of soul-searching to do. I am right now undecided exactly *what* path I should choose. At first I instantly assumed I was a Vaishnava. Now I am much less sure... At the same time I want to be careful about how to approach other deities. I have decided not to practice certain mantras I am not fully knowledgeable about.

    A great road is ahead of me, to cut it short is less than worth it.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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