Advaita Vedantha: Serious Attentions Required.

[brahman]

Respected Moderators and Members,

Sub: A Kind request

We would only be doing justice to our ancient Acaryas, especially the Classical Gurus like Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhava, when we are able to speak up their doctrines with its exact terminologies. Its relevance depends on the nature of the �frames of reference� or Prakarana being discussed.

For methodological requirements and for the sake of philosophy, these Gurus have developed their own terminologies, theological supports, applied academic abstractions, which must not be mixed up pedantically by careful students. Thus, their goal being one, the point of method and the theory of knowledge adopted stand distinctly separate from the other.

If an aspirant to wisdom feels he has not understood the content of a particular literary genre, the author is not to be blamed, nor should one regard the aspects given to be of wrong order. This could simply be the result of a limited understating or lack of interest shown by the reader regarding the concerned �frame of reference� of knowledge.

Examination of contents and the contemplative methods employed under the section �philosophy� doesn�t belong to any ordinary logic and teaching. But, at the same time, regular posters in these sections often try to acquire a full status of values common to manhood against ivory tower isolation of the ancient thinkers.

We must be looking forward to establish confidence over consciousness and bipolar relationship between each other. This approach gains the fuller status of an Absolutist to refrain from witnessing Babel Tower tragedy or multi linguistic war under divinity. Careful seekers must avoid Canteen-ing in philosophy and philosophy-ing in Canteen, which are equally dangerous for the place we belong to, the Hindu Dharma and the Hindu Dharma Forums.

Every philosophy of Vedantic origin aims at the notion of Non-Duality in its ultimate sense, which doesn�t mean the methodology applied is of the same order, besides that the terminology used by one Darsana might contradict with the other in terms of meaning and interpretation.

With all due respect I suggest the Moderators to please rethink on the divisions under the section philosophy and to allocate a separate section �General Advaitha�, this enables the seekers belonging to the Philosophy with a prefix or suffix �advaita� to their schools can make use of it and save the science of 'Advaitha Vedanta' from further contradictions and maintain its time immemorial purity of transcendence.Love

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I am in full agreement with what Brahman proposes, with one suggestion that we name the traditional advaita (sub)forum as 'pAramparya advaita' or 'Traditional Advaita' wherein we discuss only about what our traditional AchAryas--Shankara and others--have taught us. Since most of us most of the time discuss only our own notions and opinions about advaita without seeking to validate it against the traditionally established advaita tenets and philosophy, the traditional advaita gets neglected or slanted to suit our speculations. Since HDF is one of the most popular and respected Hindu forums on the Net, we need to have a repertoire of explanations of the traditional advaita that laypersons can understand and discuss how we can implement the concepts in this modern age. Kudos to Brahman for bringing up this important issue.

[sm78]

A forum is just the reflection of the those who post in it. So if advaita viewpoints in this forum appear a bit of a "weak sauce", its because posters are either unwilling or incapable of presenting a rigorous traditional viewpoint. You can create another folder, but who will fill it up? If the posters can't do it normally, how does a new forum make it suddenly happen? Most of the posts in the vaishnava folders are pretty rigorous for example, did that need separate folder/sub forum?

That said, I also don't see why traditional rigor is so important. What is the great thing in copying and pasting information from books? Copy pasting is a boring job, and only those with ample time can indulge in such things.

Quality of reply's often depend on the quality of queries. All hindu shastras have been revealed as answers to various questions posed. When that improves, answers will too.

I think those who talk from traditional view points can pay a little more attention to make sure they don't add speculation, and if they add speculation they should make it clear. Anything more than that is an overkill and artificial. Lets increase our knowledge and our posts will appear knowledgeable (to the right eye).

[FutureHumanDestiny]

for the OP, please allow me to kindly augment the original thought with the notion that we would only be doing justice to our greater selves when we are able to apply the doctrine with it's exact application and become bequeathed with the ultimate attainment of Buddha-hood or Enlightenment.

-dale

[devotee]

Namaste Brahman, Saidevo, SM and all,

I agree with SM on this issue. I don't think it would help. In fact, there are real dangers that the free environment of discussion will get contaminated.

Even without any separate forums for the discussion we all know that anything said without the support of Shastras or Advaitic AcharyAs explanations ... has not much value. You may start a thread or a series of threads which contain ONLY the Advaitic viewpoint as taught by the great AchAryAs. But what would happen if someone wants to contribute in that thread or asks some questions to be answered or raises some issue to be discussed ? Who will decide that "this much is what the AcharyAs said and beyond this it is not" ? Moreover, how do we decide that the later Advaitins like Swami VivekAnand, RAmkrishna Paramhansa, Swami Sri Youketswar, Maharishi Yogananda were the classical Advaitins or different ?

What is classical ? It is not only what Shankara said or GaudApad said. Did they say anything which was not there in the VedAnta scriptures ? The language, analogy and explanation changes with times. So, new language and terms would keep coming and it doesn't destroy the value of Advaitic teachings.

My idea is that we should not be so much fanatic towards our own conceived idea of purity. How will we treat Kabir , Shaivite Advaitins (like Kashmir Shaivism) etc. as they too don't talk VedAnta ... but speak the same Truth that VedAnta teaches ?

OM

[anirvan]

I will fully agree the POV of DEVOTEE AND SM78. The proposed new section in Purist/classic Advita will become very monotonous and the takers will be only few or none.That way it will be better start a link page for all such literatures
/commentaries by such great Acharyas.anyone wishing to read can click on and read.

Its because most netizens are unaware of the complicated sanskrit wors and grammers...which are the languages of those Acharyas and there is no english substitutes for it.It will become another un-used thread like vaishnava/shakta forums.

Hari-om

[saidevo]

namste everyone.

Yes, the doubts raised by members sm78, devotee and anirvan are valid enough to warrant a separate (sub)forum for Tradiitional Advaita. The issues I would like our members--specially those who are well familiar with traditional advaita--to deal with include the following:

It is NOT that only common people like us express our speculations about some concepts experientially established by our traditional AchAryas like Shankara. Many of the contemporary Hindu gurus (native as well as foreign) not only give their own speculations about these concepts as revealed in the traditional texts, but teach them as valid interpretations. Let us take an example:

In the 'Relevance of Religion' thread started by kallol, I gave the following link:
Globalizing Hinduism: A 'Traditional Guru' and Modern Businessmen in Chennai
http://www.jnu.ac.in/Academics/Schoo...20Hinduism.pdf

This report states as follows about the teachings of SvAmi DayAnanda sarasvatI, perceived to be a 'traditional' Hindu guru:

01. More significant is the explication of key concepts. For instance, in an audio-clip Dayananda says that moksha means seeking freedom in life, without which everything seems meaningless. In a dialogue with a student, he explains that: (27)

"My concept of moksha is freedom from the sense of limitation and the sense of dependence for your security and happiness. It is not my concept - it is the Vedantic concept. ... [It means] freedom from the sense of inadequacy."

But Dayananda's interpretation more obviously reflects a less spiritual, more this-worldly idiom that echoes contemporary western ideas about individual self-fulfilment, and in the dialogue just quoted, he insists that: 'The problem of sense of inadequacy is not a social problem but is an individual problem.'(28)

Dayananda's Chennai address (Harriss 2003: 358-9). Furthermore, moksha for Dayananda is not a very remote and difficult goal, whereas in the orthodox Brahmanical tradition, in P. V. Kane's words, to know and become identifIed with the Godhead is the ultimate objective (Kane 1977: 1631):

"This can be achieved by one's own efforts, but [it] ... is most difficult and requires the aspirant to give up egotism, selfIshness and worldly attachments."

This is what the Report says about SvAmi DayAnanda claims as one aspect of KRShNa's teaching about desires:

In the Gita, Krishna says that he manifests himself in human beings in the form of desires (which he does, though he qualifies this by referring to desires that are not inconsistent with righteousness [7.9]), and Dayananda claimed that this means that desire is a human privilege and a manifestation of divinity that actuates people to do things.

In life, though, unfulfilled desires normally outnumber fulfilled ones, so that people feel a sense of failure and inadequacy. Krishna, however, teaches us to control desires. (Actually, he tells us to renounce desires in order to obtain peace [2.55,71], as is indeed confIrmed in Dayananda's commentary.)(29)

Krishna therefore gives us a 'programme for living', 'a plan for life', which ensures that if desires are kept under control, the process of trying to fulfIl them - whether successfully or not - is enjoyable and we can learn from it. Hence there are 'varieties of experience', not 'failures'.

The point is, how do we understand the purpose and estimate the relevance, application and validity of behind such deviations from tradition even by well-versed and renowned Acharyas who are perceived to be traditional? Surely, this "weak sauce" version of interpretation of our key terms would percolate down the generations of modern Hindus, making them more and more ignorant and indifferent to the teachings of traditional AchAryas--even of shrI KRShNa!

[devotee]

Namaste Saidevo ji,

I can understand and share your concern. What you are pointing out is a serious thing but I don't know what we can do about it. There many forums on the internet and there are many western self-proclaimed Advaita Gurus who have their own idea of Advaita. In fact, people start claiming enlightenment just after a few logical discussion on the issue of Advaita.

Similarly, we can't take Swami Dayananda at his face value. I don't if he has taken Diskhsa in any of the ten orders of SankarachArya or he is yet another self-proclaimed Advaita teacher like Swami (?) NityAnanda.

If we feel that a separate forum will filter this out, please go ahead with it.

OM

[brahman]

RESPECTED moderators and members,

Let me thank the participants for the replies posted. They were excellent.

Before we proceed any further to reach a conclusion and pass it down the end result to the decision maker Sri. Satay, I would request you all to take on a pragmatic approach as we have already dealt this issue theoretically.

To help you in this, I am presenting here the current and proposed outlook of the divisions under philosophy.


The division under philosophy, number of threads, posts, and its descriptions (current)

Philosophy

Dvaita (22 Threads --- 166 Posts)
Forum for discussion of Dvaita Philosophy.

Advaita (143 Threads --- 2549 Posts
Forum for discussion of Advaita Philosophy and Monism.

Vishishtadvaita(12 --- 80)
Forum for discussion of Vishishtadvaita Philosophy and Qualified Monism.

Paradvaita (7 --- 275)
Forum for discussion of Tantrik Monism and Kashmiri Shaiva traditions.

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The division under philosophy, number of threads, posts and its description (as per our new proposal)


Philosophy

Tattva -Vada/Dvaitha Vedanta (22 Threads --- 166 Posts)
Forum for discussion of Dualistic non-dualism of Sri. Madhva.

Advaita Vedanta (143 Threads 2547 posts)
Forum for discussion of non-dualism of Sri. Sankara

Vishishtadvaita (12 --- 80)
Forum for discussion of qualified non-dualism of Sri. Ramanuja

Paradvaita (7 --- 275)
Forum for discussion of Tantrik non-dualism and Kashmiri Shaiva traditions.

Advaita-General
Forum for discussion of non-dualism of Vedantic origin
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Some valid doubts of SM and Devotee


SM Wrote: You can create another folder, but who will fill it up?

Spanning all non-dualistic philosophy of Indian origin with 143 threads and 2547 posts, Advaita Vedantha dominates the other 3 traditions in terms of the number of posts.

The new proposal allows further postings to their desired sections thus saving the genuine nature of the respected sections as listed under philosophy. This causes a split up rather than getting filled up.

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Devotee Wrote: How will we treat Kabir , Shaivite Advaitins (like Kashmir Shaivism) etc. as they too don't talk VedAnta ... but speak the same Truth that VedAnta teaches ?

Yes, this has been known as 'Advaitha Approach' in India, which is unitive and non dual in character. At the same we should not refrain ourselves discussing the dangers behind it.

When some religious movements culminate one’s behaviour into an experience of trance, an insensible state as the ultimate goal of spirituality, it serves a momentary or temporary phase alone. No characteristics of technical advancement happen rather than loosing money and time.

On the contrary, when in performs technically advanced science, so called classical in the OP, the seeker is endeavoured to maintain an equilibrium of thought or stability of thought rather than a culmination in a state of trance; where trance, light at the end of torch, white heat, red glow, fire balls and upper palate tongue massage etc are normal and corollary without any room in its syllabus.

This 'sense of balance in consciousnesses' through scientific teaching and its application is usually brief in the beginning, the magnitude strongly rises each day, rendering us the humane qualities than of a godman.

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Different sciences

Among us are the learned and the learners. We follow the fashion of respecting every science that has its origin in the Science of the Absolute. We give it due respect because we believe that for every science as a science, its terminologies, methods and applications has its own significance.


Methodology of Brahakuamaris may differ from that of Self realization fellowship; these subtle differences between these traditions are wisdoms pills for the serious students.

Why should we have many folders under one science called the Vedas? We could have a folder called “Vedas” alone.

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An Error in understanding

“Advata Vedanta” is a science developed by Sankara, where the word “Advaita” is an all inclusive general concept of the Absolute, proclaimed by the Vedas. This subtle difference has to be borne in mind throughout our reading.

Consciously or unconsciously, you and I have followed this error for sometime in this most happening intellectual Hindu gathering.

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Thank you again

We all learn through mistakes. All fellow sincere seekers of wisdom are welcomed to take up this initiative further. To learn, and benefit others, lets allow ourselves to learn the science of it.Love



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Note: Paraadvaita is mindfully left out as it is not a victim of this unsolicited contamination, it is still pure in my eys.

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

I am sorry to have prompted a negative impression about SvAmi DayAnanda SarasvatI of the ArSha VidyA Gurukulam ashram. This was due to my wrongly believing word for word, the report from the western authors I have cited in my earlier post. Having had a first darshan of SvAmiji with my friend a few months back, and seen a bit of his AnaikaTTi Ashram in Coimbatore, I should have known better.

On further search, I now understand that Svami DayAnanda is a unique and multifaceted spiritual and religious personality with incredible achievements in almost every area of religious and spiritual manifestation in India one can think about. By way of a small atonement, let me try to paraphrase some of what one can easily find in much more detail about SvAmiji and his service.

• SvAmi DayAnanda SarasvatI is NOT a "self-proclaimed Advaita teacher": His guru was SvAmi ChinmayAnanda whose guru was SvAmi SivAnanda of the Divine Life Society, RiShikesh.

• He is very much of a traditional AchArya--teacher, emphasizing the wisdom of the Vedic RShis and striving to rejuvenate/sustain all the cultural and religious facets of our Hindu Dharma, as can be readily seen from the following list of his activities and achievements.

• Teaching of Vedanta
‣ Gurukulams & Spiritual Retreat centers: Running these facilities and Teaching camps and long term courses for 5 to 6 months in a year
‣ Inspire and train a large number of people to become Vedanta teachers
‣ Many Public talks all over the world every year
‣ Outreach program
‣ Bhagavad Gita Home study program
‣ Research and Publications

• Recognizing contributions to Arsha vidya (Institution of ‘Arsha Kula Sreshtha’ award)
• Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha (apex body of ancient Hindu sampradayas)
• Hindu Dharma Samstha Pramukh Sabha (body of more recent Hindu institutions which are not members of the Acharya sabha)

• Dharma Rakshana Samiti
‣ Recognition and encouragement of Guruswamys
‣ Propogation of Grama devata worship (cala-pratistha of
Angala Pramesvari Amman)

• Pathashalas for preservation of Vedas and agamas
• Preservation of Temple traditions and cultures
‣ Oduvars – recognition and support for livelihood
‣ Construction of Ashta DikPalakas and proper offerings at Brhadeesvarar temple
‣ Thiruvidaimarudur ther (chariot) project

• Hindu-Jewish summits
• Promoting Education
‣ Dayananda education trust
‣ Krupa by Dayananda- B.D.Goenka seva trust
‣ Vedic heritage teaching program

• Preservation of arts and music
‣ Institution of Arsha Kala Bhushanam awards
‣ Thiruppugazh conference

• Promoting global harmony and world peace
• Thinkers meet (a forum for thinkers to address Hindu and National
issues)
• Digital library project
• International conference on Vedic Sarasvati River and Hindu Civilization (to get the true story of ancient India)
• Fighting Global warming (by advocating avoidance of red meat eating)

More details on the above projects can be had from an Interview conducted by Dr.V.Swaminathan, which is posted here:
http://www.dharmarakshanasamiti.org/...rses&Itemid=13
http://www.arshavidya.in/Interview.pdf

and these websites of SvAmiji and his disciples:
http://www.dayananda.org/
http://www.arshavidya.org/ (US ashram website)
http://www.arshavidya.in/ (Coimbatore-anaikatti ashram website)
http://www.acharyasabha.org/
http://www.aimforseva.org/

Unlike many traditional Hindu gurus, SvAmi DayAnanda is forthright on the subject of Hindu Dharma rakShaNam--protection against the aggressions of Christianity and Islam. The DAV chain of schools in India is based on his ideals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayanan...Schools_System