Originally Posted by
sarabhanga
Namaste Pankaja,
What is the ISKCON understanding of Brahman before and between Creation? Do the Jivas exist even in Pralaya?
Ah well this question varies very much. Iskcon and Gaudiya Matha slighty differ in this and their is some contrevasy regarding the 'fall-down' of the Jiva into this material world. To sight a verse from Bhagavad-gita:
After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection. Bg.8.15
Iskcon claimed before that we in fact have fell from Goloka. But Krishna clearly says we never did. Iskcon basis's this on a letter which Srila Prabhupada wrote to disicples 'called the Tal-fruit analogy'. Of cource not all devotees agree with what Iskcon says (in and around Iskcon as well). It sort of basically means Maya exsists in Goloka so there is always a chance to fall-down.! To reconsile this you would have to go through so much avenues. Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja (Gaudiya Vaishnava) says that we came from the Tatastha Shakti. If you search on www.purebhakti.com you can find out about it. It gives an amazing and unprecendented clarification of what exacly 'tatathsta-shakti actually is'. It has something to do with Shambu, Shiva-linga and Sri Hari, and sembleance of light. It is an enourmous subject. The reason why I mentioned this is Iskcon says many things. But we are all independent to know what is the actual truth Prabhupada has given to us. And Krishna says that rare 'people know him'. So please don't misunderstand me for saying this here.
The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Not Fall From Goloka: http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/l...20216eve.shtml
[Pundarika dasa reads from Jaiva Dharma, Chapter Sixteen:] "Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vrndavana-vihari Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Vrndavana, and others appear from Sri Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the spiritual sky. Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavan, and are always favorable to Him. By virtue of the spiritual sakti, they have the strength to stay fixed in their devotion, and they have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they are unaware that there is a deluding energy called maya. Since they reside in the spiritual world, maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all. Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear."
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] They are all liberated. They don't know what is maya and what is this material world. Who knows? We know. We have come from tatastha-sakti, from a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu called Karanabdisayi Visnu, who is situated on the marginal line, in the Karanabdhi (Causal Ocean). The jivas are not coming to this world from Goloka Vrndavana, nor are they coming from Vaikuntha. They are coming form the marginal line, from the glance of Karanabdhisayi Visnu. Among them, those who look towards Vaikuntha are liberated, and they go there at once without delay. Conversely, those who look toward this world will come here.
Jivas are independent because Krsna has made them so. This independence is like a special jewel, and the jivas can use it properly or misuse it. If they using it well, they will quickly go towards Vaikuntha, and if they misuse it they will have to suffer.
Here is an example. If you have a sharp sword or knife and you drop some very small and round mustard seeds on it so that they falls in the middle of the sword, some will fall over to one side and some will fall to the other. The jiva has got some independence to go here or there. This is not the fault of Krsna, but rather it is their independence to look here and there. If they look towards Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana, Yogamaya will at once help them and they will go there. On the other hand, those who look towards the material world will be attracted by Mahamaya. Krsna is not at fault here.
You cannot understand this in your present stage, but when you come in our stage, then you will realize something. At present you should chant, follow your guru, and follow all these teachings. Don't conclude that the jivas have come from Goloka. Although Srila Swami Maharaja never said that the jivas fell from Goloka, some of his disciples try to prove that he has said the opposite. But I know the truth. He has told me, and it is also in sastra. Srimati Syamarani dasi has collected so many of Srila Swami Maharaja words, confirming that he never accepted that the jivas came from Goloka Vrndavana.
na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama
"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (Bg 15.6)
This is totally mind-blowing :
THE GLORIES OF LORD SIVA AND SIVA-RATRI: http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/l...20000305.shtml
The desire of the prathama (first) purusa incarnation, Maha-Visnu, is called iccha-sakti. At the time of the creation of this material world, Krishna desires to create. At that time He expands Himself as Maha Sankarsan. That Sankarsan, thus possessed of creative desire, expands as Karanabdasayi Visnu, Maha-Visnu, and Maha-Visnu thus desires to create. This desire then takes the form of a light, which emanates from in between his eyebrows. The abhasa, the semblance or dim twilight reflection of this light, is called Sambhu-linga. Many people worship Lord Siva in the form of Sambhu-linga. The light itself is eternal: 'Jotirupa sanatanah'. It is not Sambhu-linga. Sambhu-linga is the semblance of that light.
There is also another semblance, called Yoni, and she is the shadow of Ramadevi. Ramadevi is Vaikuntha-pati Narayana's beloved divine consort Laksmidevi. Ramadevi is the power, the spiritual (cit) potency of Karanabdasayi Visnu. This is her suddha Svarupa, her original transcendental form, and her shadow is Mayadevi, the limited conceiving potency.
In order to understand this more comprehensively, it may be noted that Maha-Visnu has two types of potency. One is called 'nimitta' and another is called 'upadana'. One is the instrumental cause, and the other is the efficient cause.
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This is proof.
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