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Thread: Hare Krishna!

  1. #11
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    Namaste Pankaja,

    In Shri Caitanya’s Acintya-Bhedabheda philosophy, the particular individual Jivas are eternally distinguished and atomic in nature, although being always associated with the coeternal Paramatman.

    If the Jivas are eternal, then Brahman must remain eternally divided, which goes against very much Shruti. And I suppose that is why the proviso of “inconceivable” oneness has been included.

    If the idea is only simultaneous oneness and difference, there is no problem and the theory is only a version of Vishishtadvaita; but when the difference is considered to be eternal then we have a re-statement of Samkhya philosophy, which is thoroughly Dvaita-vada.

    Perhaps we should more clearly distinguish the vishiSTa-advaita of other schools from Shri Caitanya’s vishiSTa-dvaita philosophy.

  2. #12
    Ok I;m not accurate at all saying they are abrahamic. Abrahamic religions is not about Dvaita vada, there is something more fundamental to them which puts them in a different class.

    If at all I was talking about the attitude of which I had little experience with regards to vegetarianism.

  3. #13
    If the Jivas are eternal, then Brahman must remain eternally divided, which goes against very much Shruti.
    Bhagavad-gita as it is.2.23:
    The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.

  4. #14
    Perhaps we should more clearly distinguish the vishiSTa-advaita of other schools from Shri Caitanya’s vishiSTa-dvaita philosophy.
    Good idea.

    Srimad Bhagavatam.7.3.31 Purport www.vedabase.net
    The living entities are described as parts and parcels of the Lord because He is the life and soul of all living entities, being situated within their hearts as the antaryami, as enunciated by the philosophy of inconceivable oneness and difference (acintya-bhedabheda). Since the living entities are part of God, they are one in quality with the Lord, yet they are different from Him. The Supersoul, who inspires all living entities to act, is one and changeless. There are varieties of subjects, objects and activities, yet the Lord is one.
    --

    Totally inconceivable. There is a verse in Srimad Bhagavatam in 11 Canto but I cannot seem to locate it. It says in this verse the Paramatma is within the soul. So God is actually within our soul, but He is also outside. This Philosophy is given by Gauranga Mahaprabhu. We cannot convieve how God can be within us and outside and at the SAME time we are one? Its totally impossible to concieve.
    Last edited by Pankaja; 04 April 2006 at 10:55 AM.

  5. #15
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    Namaste Pankaja,

    If the many Jivas are co-eternal with the one Brahman, then the divided nature of Brahman (i.e. Kala Brahman) must be equally unborn. And thus “Acintya-Bhedabheda” denies that Brahman has ever been absolutely undivided, and suggests that Prajapati’s original Atma-Yajna was superfluous (since the Paramatman was already divided).

    What is the ISKCON understanding of Brahman before and between Creation? Do the Jivas exist even in Pralaya?

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga
    Namaste Pankaja,


    What is the ISKCON understanding of Brahman before and between Creation? Do the Jivas exist even in Pralaya?
    Ah well this question varies very much. Iskcon and Gaudiya Matha slighty differ in this and their is some contrevasy regarding the 'fall-down' of the Jiva into this material world. To sight a verse from Bhagavad-gita:

    After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection. Bg.8.15




    Iskcon claimed before that we in fact have fell from Goloka. But Krishna clearly says we never did. Iskcon basis's this on a letter which Srila Prabhupada wrote to disicples 'called the Tal-fruit analogy'. Of cource not all devotees agree with what Iskcon says (in and around Iskcon as well). It sort of basically means Maya exsists in Goloka so there is always a chance to fall-down.! To reconsile this you would have to go through so much avenues. Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja (Gaudiya Vaishnava) says that we came from the Tatastha Shakti. If you search on www.purebhakti.com you can find out about it. It gives an amazing and unprecendented clarification of what exacly 'tatathsta-shakti actually is'. It has something to do with Shambu, Shiva-linga and Sri Hari, and sembleance of light. It is an enourmous subject. The reason why I mentioned this is Iskcon says many things. But we are all independent to know what is the actual truth Prabhupada has given to us. And Krishna says that rare 'people know him'. So please don't misunderstand me for saying this here.



    The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Not Fall From Goloka: http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/l...20216eve.shtml
    [Pundarika dasa reads from Jaiva Dharma, Chapter Sixteen:] "Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vrndavana-vihari Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Vrndavana, and others appear from Sri Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the spiritual sky. Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavan, and are always favorable to Him. By virtue of the spiritual sakti, they have the strength to stay fixed in their devotion, and they have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they are unaware that there is a deluding energy called maya. Since they reside in the spiritual world, maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all. Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear."

    [Srila Narayana Maharaja:] They are all liberated. They don't know what is maya and what is this material world. Who knows? We know. We have come from tatastha-sakti, from a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu called Karanabdisayi Visnu, who is situated on the marginal line, in the Karanabdhi (Causal Ocean). The jivas are not coming to this world from Goloka Vrndavana, nor are they coming from Vaikuntha. They are coming form the marginal line, from the glance of Karanabdhisayi Visnu. Among them, those who look towards Vaikuntha are liberated, and they go there at once without delay. Conversely, those who look toward this world will come here.

    Jivas are independent because Krsna has made them so. This independence is like a special jewel, and the jivas can use it properly or misuse it. If they using it well, they will quickly go towards Vaikuntha, and if they misuse it they will have to suffer.

    Here is an example. If you have a sharp sword or knife and you drop some very small and round mustard seeds on it so that they falls in the middle of the sword, some will fall over to one side and some will fall to the other. The jiva has got some independence to go here or there. This is not the fault of Krsna, but rather it is their independence to look here and there. If they look towards Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana, Yogamaya will at once help them and they will go there. On the other hand, those who look towards the material world will be attracted by Mahamaya. Krsna is not at fault here.

    You cannot understand this in your present stage, but when you come in our stage, then you will realize something. At present you should chant, follow your guru, and follow all these teachings. Don't conclude that the jivas have come from Goloka. Although Srila Swami Maharaja never said that the jivas fell from Goloka, some of his disciples try to prove that he has said the opposite. But I know the truth. He has told me, and it is also in sastra. Srimati Syamarani dasi has collected so many of Srila Swami Maharaja words, confirming that he never accepted that the jivas came from Goloka Vrndavana.

    na tad bhasayate suryo
    na sasanko na pavakah
    yad gatva na nivartante
    tad dhama paramam mama

    "That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (Bg 15.6)



    This is totally mind-blowing :

    THE GLORIES OF LORD SIVA AND SIVA-RATRI: http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/l...20000305.shtml
    The desire of the prathama (first) purusa incarnation, Maha-Visnu, is called iccha-sakti. At the time of the creation of this material world, Krishna desires to create. At that time He expands Himself as Maha Sankarsan. That Sankarsan, thus possessed of creative desire, expands as Karanabdasayi Visnu, Maha-Visnu, and Maha-Visnu thus desires to create. This desire then takes the form of a light, which emanates from in between his eyebrows. The abhasa, the semblance or dim twilight reflection of this light, is called Sambhu-linga. Many people worship Lord Siva in the form of Sambhu-linga. The light itself is eternal: 'Jotirupa sanatanah'. It is not Sambhu-linga. Sambhu-linga is the semblance of that light.

    There is also another semblance, called Yoni, and she is the shadow of Ramadevi. Ramadevi is Vaikuntha-pati Narayana's beloved divine consort Laksmidevi. Ramadevi is the power, the spiritual (cit) potency of Karanabdasayi Visnu. This is her suddha Svarupa, her original transcendental form, and her shadow is Mayadevi, the limited conceiving potency.

    In order to understand this more comprehensively, it may be noted that Maha-Visnu has two types of potency. One is called 'nimitta' and another is called 'upadana'. One is the instrumental cause, and the other is the efficient cause.
    ===


    This is proof.
    Last edited by Pankaja; 06 April 2006 at 12:16 AM.

  7. #17

    iscon

    yes we who follow hindu dharma knows brahnan is one and many are the same. so we know bhahti towards HIm is more important than the name. Arjun who was fortunate to have Dharshan of Lord's Original Virad swarup and his incessant love to wards Krishna didn't liberate Arjun entirely but Lord bid him to take one more birth in Kali Yug and serve the Lord in his Shiv Form. so Arjun was born as a hunter Kannappa and served as Shive Bahkt befor attaining total liberation.

    This way Lord has revealed to us that Bhakti in any of His form will be definitely rewarded towards the path of liberation.

    But why ISCKON is insisting on Krishnna's Name. It is simple. when you are living in a town and if a stanger come and ask you the way to a certain place, what you will do. even if you know different routes you will tell the stranger only one route and insist him to take that route only. but the stranger once become familiar of that locality he will find many ways to reach his destination. so if a religon or a movement like ISCKON insist on one marg to attain liberation it is not wron but its an attempt that you will deinitely reach your destination without confision and losing the way.

    jai sri Ram

  8. #18
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    I would like to believe ISKON is a movement. Rather than seeing it as a monetheism. you take it if you like or leave it. no force.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja
    If the Jivas are eternal, then Brahman must remain eternally divided, which goes against very much Shruti.
    Bhagavad-gita as it is.2.23:
    The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.
    In Dvaita, Jivas and Brahman are completely different entities. They were, are, and will never be part of Brahman. Hence the thought of Brahman being divided is itself wrong.
    Last edited by rkannan1; 09 April 2006 at 02:00 PM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkannan1
    In Dvaita, Jivas and Brahman are completely different entities. They were, are, and will never be part of Brahman. Hence the thought of Brahman being undivided us itself wrong.
    So what's the source of jiva and brahman? Do they have a common source or creator or is it assumed that they both exit eternally and have no creator?

    satay

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