Hindus await LDS apology on Gandhi's proxy baptism

[Visvamitra]

Anyone aware of this stuff with the LDS Church baptizing the ancestors of people who were Hindu? What are your thoughts?

http://matangitonga.to/2012/03/05/hi...-proxy-baptism

[Eastern Mind]

Anyone aware of this stuff with the LDS Church baptizing the ancestors of people who were Hindu? What are your thoughts?

http://matangitonga.to/2012/03/05/hi...-proxy-baptism

Vannakkam: I actually more or less respect the Mormon Church for their focus on families and strong morals, but certainly this is one nutty doctrine. In the long run, it will do any coercive or subtle evangelizing efforts a whole lot of harm. This is a good side outcome.

I certainly don't believe you can actually convert after death. Certainly not any real conversion in any sense of the word. So its not actually a mystical problem. The soul that was Gandhi is either off in a heavenly moksha state, of back in another body, and my guess is the latter. Just some really fanatical doctrine. I know if it was for someone in my immediate family, I'd be calling a lawyer. Maybe HAF will do just that.

Aum Namasivaya

[charitra]

They did the same with jews in England a couple of years ago and earned the wrath of Jewish community. Went to cemetaries a nd dug out the records out of the offices and converted the dead and buried. Im not kidding !! Christians compete among themselves fervently for inter denominational conversions. Ex British PM Tony Blair 'converted' to catholicism FORMALLY in a C church after he left office So did Newt Gingrich !!

Why should we bother what they do inside their place of worship.

Namaste.

[TTCUSM]

Anyone aware of this stuff with the LDS Church baptizing the ancestors of people who were Hindu? What are your thoughts?

http://matangitonga.to/2012/03/05/hi...-proxy-baptism

So long as the Mormons aren't physically harming us, let them do what they want.

[shian]

the other nuts, what we can say to the nuts ?

[wundermonk]

My thoughts are the following.

(1)Xity is an empty religion - theologically, logically and metaphysically.
(2)Xians are more or less just deceitful people.
(3)Converting the rest of the world by hook or crook - in other words, tricking people into their religion - trumps everything else.
(4)Indians in general are clueless about the sinister intentions of Abrahamics.
(5)Indians in general are also clueless about the superiority of their religion.

Have a nice day!

[Aakriti]

Because I have a more than passing knowledge of Mormonism (legally known as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"), a religion which began in the 1800s in the United States, because members of my family are ex-Mormons, I think it is probably my responsibility to point out several things that are not well known outside of the United States (and are frequently misunderstood even within the United States):

1) Despite the legal name, Mormons are generally not considered to be a Christian religion by other Christians. Depending on the Christian denomination you ask, there will be different reasons, but the consensus is that Mormonism is not, and never has been, "Christian" by any criteria other than the founder put the words "Jesus Christ" into the name of the religion in order to curry favor with the Christian religions prevailing at that time.

2) Mormonism does meet the criteria for a "cult" (the contemporary, negative kind of cult; not the academic use of the word to describe religious activities in ancient religions).

3) The Mormon "imperative" to baptize dead people (this is something that is tremendously important in Mormonism) is done for a number of reasons, beginning with the fact that believing Mormons actually do seek to "steal" the souls of non-Mormon dead people. Although those same believing Mormons say that the dead have the right to refuse their baptism, this is not so according to their own doctrines, since further temple rituals, performed either immediately afterwards or very soon afterwards, supposedly "bind" the baptized dead soul "for time and all eternity."

4) The "Mormon Church" is basically a business, purporting to be a church, and is searching for new members all of the time to increase their income. Members are required to pay a minimum of 10% (it's actually more than this) of their GROSS income to the Church, and cannot participate in Mormon temple rituals without a "temple recommend" which, among other things, testifies that these tithes have been paid and are up to date. There is no accountability to anyone for this money: not to members of the Church, and not to the U.S. or any state government (due to legal restrictions on the separation of "church" and state).

5) The reasons why there is such an emphasis on baptizing the dead is that members do this work as part of their "callings," and must have temple recommends to do it, so this means that most of the members are always up to date on their tithing. There is a constant need for new "dead people" to baptize in order to keep the members "busy."

6) Everything in Mormonism--every single piece of real estate (including shopping malls, factories, stores, etc.)--is legally owned by one single man (it is ALWAYS a male, by Mormon "law"). Although there are a group of "advisors" in subordinate positions, legally EVERYTHING is owned by this one man. When he dies, it is "passed on" to the next male in the ruling line. The Mormon Church, in all of its holdings, is worth billions and billions of dollars, and every single cent or dollar contributed by anyone anywhere is legally owned by this one person.

7) The Mormon Church does not do or contribute to charitable activities for non-Mormons...and does very, very little for its own members, even when they are in extreme distress...and contributes heavily to political causes and candidates who they believe will increase the power of the Mormon Church throughout not only North American, but throughout the world. (Think of the global missionary activities which are pretty much a "required" part of every Mormon male's life for two years.)

For anyone interested: http://www.exmormon.org has an entire site devoted to everything I have said, and far, far more--complete with all historical records, etc.

[Maya3]

I think it is terribly rude to pull dead peoples names from a database and "baptize" them.

Mormons have amazing databases for genealogy research for this reason. Anyone who has done some family history research knows that their databases are meticulous. It's fascinating that they actually think that jumping in a pool of water and saying a random dead persons name can change anything.

If it makes them feel better to do so, it is fine with me, as long as they don't change things my religious affiliation. I don't want my relatives to find my name in a database in 300 years and have it say that I was Mormon.

But if they sleep better at night because they think that they have saved people from hell then good for them. Sleep is important.

Still, it IS rude.

Maya

[Aakriti]

If it makes them feel better to do so, it is fine with me, as long as they don't change things my religious affiliation. I don't want my relatives to find my name in a database in 300 years and have it say that I was Mormon.

From a LDS (Latter Day Saint/Mormon) perspective, this is exactly the point (and it could well have very lasting consequences so far as planet Earth and your descendants and future collateral relatives go): If you were to die and be dead dunked (baptized as Mormon after your death, because your name was found in some vital statistics, hospital records, census records, whatever, by some temple worker who, working diligently on their "calling," procured them somewhere), you are entered into the permanent Mormon records as being a baptized Mormon (almost always with further temple "binding" ceremonies, which I don't understand, but know that they exist in multiple different forms).

Your non-Mormon relatives, in this lifetime, would ALSO--so far as they could be identified--be dead dunked, etc., etc....as would THEIR non-Mormon relatives, etc. Temple workers would "contribute" at least hundreds of hours of work, over time, to identify all of your relatives, and all of THEIR relatives, for all of the generations to come...and every identified individual, in systematic fashion, would be dead dunked and then receive "their" further temple "commitment ceremonies" (depending mostly on their gender and their marital status).

These records are kept deep within a mountain in northern Utah (state of the United States; the adopted "home" of Mormonism), in an immense vault complex which was built at enormous cost, and which was designed to withstand any natural disaster of any kind, or damage from any nuclear weapon. Even if the United States were completely wiped out by an asteroid hitting Earth, those records would survive...and would be able to be retrieved at some point in the future.

At that point, of course, you wouldn't care...but in my opinion (and in the opinion of many, many non-Mormons and ex-Mormons) this is one of the most insulting and offensive things that could ever be imagined. It shows total disrespect to every person who is dead dunked (because obviously, if they are dead, they are not giving their consent to being dead dunked), and to their families from the identifiable past as well as the future for perhaps thousands of years, and this is enormously offensive and disrespectful to all of the religions and beliefs (or non-beliefs, because many of the people being dead dunked are sincere atheists and agnostics) which become unwitting parts of this (to me) reprehensible Mormon practice.

You, yourself, under the name and identity you have right now, may never "be" Mormon (according to Mormon belief) until after you're dead dunked and don't care, but everyone you have ever been related to, and any descendants of yours who will ever be born at any time to come, may--if we're not very conscious of what's going on here--be identified as Mormon themselves somewhere down the line.

[EDITED TO ADD: I have never before seen this expressed this way, and maybe I'm the first one to "see" that this is what is actually happening, but the way it actually works (according to everything I know) is: If you are dead dunked after your death, by that act (of your being baptized Mormon), you are giving "permission" to the LDS/Mormon Church to dead dunk anyone who has ever, in all of your recorded ancestry, or will ever--during all future generations of your family line, be related to you in any way--and this means: whether this is by biological genetic heritage, or by marriage of some kind (and I think "step-parents" and "step-siblings," etc., count as relatives of yours or your affiliated descendants). Example: You are dead dunked, but you have no children...so no direct descendants. But your SISTER or BROTHER or COUSIN can be dead dunked because YOU have been (so, by Mormon belief, your sister/brother/cousin are related to a Mormon), and this means that all of their descendants (as well as their relatives-by-marriage). If a complete-as-is-possible family tree is created, and this is what many temple workers spend many hours doing every week throughout the world, then all of those names which are discovered will very probably be turned in as "baptizeable"...and will be baptized at least once. Many people are dead dunked numerous times because the temples have run out of names but they want to keep the temples open and operating, so they just trade names around the temple circuit, and everyone gets rebaptized a few times more. That's what just happened to World War II Holocaust victim, and Dutch national, Anne Frank, who was just re-baptized the eighth or so time, this time in the Dominican Republic (I think). I know this sounds like this is some kind of very dark, comedic farce, but it most definitely is NOT. And this is why Jews, among many other people, are so offended and upset that this is not only happening, but CONTINUES to happen, even after the LDS/Mormon Church REPEATEDLY promises to NOT do this ANY MORE...and then they get caught doing it all over again.]

[Maya3]

Would it also say that I was Mormon in other non Mormon data bases? Or just in the Mormon data bases?

I can see how this is upsetting to you and to other people, it is certainly rude and kind of strange in my opinion.
But it cannot have an affect on anyone other then the people who think they are helping. How could God know whom you are talking about when you are pulling a random name from a person you know nothing about from a database?

When i leave my body, I will no longer use my current name, and it doesn't really matter what people who don't know me would do with it.

But again, if this changes databases all over the world and changes data to say that people who were not Mormon were, then is beyond insane.

I'm glad people are speaking about this though, most people don't know about it and it's good that people are becoming aware.

Maya