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Thread: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

  1. #11

    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    Namaste anirvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by anirvan View Post
    so what is the real solution? is this universe merely illusion? or it has relative existence or as per vaishnava thought its eternally existing? as they ask if its illusion,then why its not absolving after one gets moksha?

    Then what is mayavad?is it universally valid or it is a relative conditioning for a advita sadhak to reach that state?

    Might time be the illusion and the universe real. The illusion is the notion that we are either moving forwards or backwards. The universe opens like a flower, it does not ask why it simply seeks the rays of Brahma.

    Might the vibration of matter be real but the creations made of that matter as it folds back upon its self be transitory illusion. In fact there is no forwards or backwards, only the perception of that?

    Just as the waves on the ocean are perceived by us, they do not exist out side of our time. time being only a change in state; nothing more. Yet the illusion of that wave is very real; to the point that it shapes the shore turning rock in to pebble and pebble in to sand, yet that shore formation seen in another rate of time is nothing but a wave in its self, so the matter is real at our scale; but sure enough when out side of this time frame and scale there is just a vibration, like that of the wave.

    Reality then must relate to scale; I like to think of reality as mass (E=mc) so it is also energy. Imagine 30000 tonne ship in the port, if I lean upon it briefly, it feels solid; I can push shove and kick and it kicks back as I stub my toe it appears unmovable. However if I lean against it for long enough, with only my body weight; I cause it to move, as it builds momentum and changes direction ...

    Just some thoughts and musings, thank you for the thought provoking thread.

    praNAma

    mana

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    Namaste Anirvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by anirvan View Post
    if we admit the true existence of the universe,then we have to admit that everything has been originated from cit-brahman. but if we deny the existence of the universe,then it implies there is only brahman and no second.

    so what is the real solution? is this universe merely illusion? or it has relative existence or as per vaishnava thought its eternally existing? as they ask if its illusion,then why its not absolving after one gets moksha?

    Then what is mayavad?is it universally valid or it is a relative conditioning for a advita sadhak to reach that state?


    I request the thoughts of members with valid rational to make this debatable question more understandable?
    You have asked a very valuable question but there is a caution. The Upanishads and also the Bhagwad Gita tell us that this JnAn yoga is not for everyone and this JnAn to an unprepared mind can be dangerous to him/her.

    Those who find Bhakti Yoga suited to their spiritual status should avoid this discussion altogether. I shall tell you what Mahopanishad tells us on this issue :

    Aadau ShamdamprAyairguNaih shishyam vishodhayet |
    PashchAt sarvamidam Brahman shuddhstavmiti bodhayet || 104||
    AjnayAsyArdha prabuddhsya sarvam Brahmaneti vadet |
    MahAnarakjAleshu sa tena viniyojitah || 105 ||

    At first (the Guru) should purify the shishya (disciple/seeker) by (teaching him) shama-dama (controlling our sense organs and carnal desires) & then only he should teach him that "this all is Brahman and you too are That".

    Teaching this to someone who is not knowledgeable and who have not fully developed mind (i.e. not having purified mind/intellect) is like pushing him into MahAnarak (the worst of hells).


    What I have written in my posts above is not any MAyAvAd or whatever. It is direct quotes taken from the Upanishads. The ISKCON people derisively call the Advaita VedAnta as "MAyAvAd" and also ShankarA as someone who came to misguide people. That is why I have taken directly from the Upanishads without modifying it anyway so that anyone can see that this so-called MAyAvAd is there in the Upanishads and it is not a figment of imagination of Shankara's mind.

    ****************

    Whether this universe exists or not ? This universe exists but it is not what it is perceived to be by our mind and sense organs. That is why it is called creation of MAyA. It is difficult to accept that this Universe that look so real to us is actually illusory. Why ? Because we are part of this great illusion. Mind which is the cause of this great illusion is trying to run the test of "reality" on this illusory universe ! The thief is acting as the police !

    It is like when you see the dream ... within a dream can a dream character ever realise that the dream-world has no real existence ? We are the dream characters of the Cosmic Dream ... until we are awakened, we cannot see the reality, as the man who is sleeping cannot see that the dream was false until he is awakened.

    Scientifically, I can tell you the illusory nature of this universe. You imagine a solid iron wall in front of you. You cannot pass through this wall as seemingly it has no void in it. Right ? However, we all know that the atoms are actually hollow with around more than 99.99 % space inside. In fact, the string theory and vibrating field theory suggests that matter is actually illusory and has no real existence. So, the solid iron wall in front of you is actually 100 % or at least 99.99 % space but you don't see the space which makes this Iron wall. Even if you break and keep breaking this wall into pieces you can never ever see the space inside with your eyes. .... And we say that the Iron wall is reality and it is not an illusion !

    That is the power of MAyA. I can prove that whatever you see, whatever you hear, whatever you taste and whatever you touch is nothing but illusion ... by giving similar logic from science.

    If you are interested, you may like to read my posts no 158,160 and 161 in the link given below :

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...?t=846&page=16

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    Thanks MANA and Devotee for wonderful explanations. I have gone through the threads http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...?t=846&page=16.

    All the discussion is centred upon advita nature brahman,but the question is how can we just ignore maya saying it not more than illusion while in my opinion BRAHMAN IS SYNONYMOUS WITH MAYA as far as we look at para vidya as maya as they are eternally undifferentiated.in fact the aim of the op is to discuss theswaroopa/nature of MAYA and its importance in spiritual path and also how a sadhaka should look at her and the reason and validity of saying her as illusion.The reason i am saying this is why as i put few points below...

    "nirguna saguna ceti dwidha prokta manishibhih !
    saguna ragibhih sevya nirguna tu veragibhih !!" (devibhagabat)

    This parambrahmaroopini sat-cit-anand mayee parashakti devi is known as saguna and nirguna among brahmin.worldy oriented human worship her saguna roopa and mumukshu worship her nirguna roopa.

    "citstatpadalakshartha cidekaraswaroopini !"" (brahmanda purana)

    tat here is referred her as cit.so she is the only citandanda swaroopa.

    "viseshaviselingamatralingani gunaparvani!!" (patanjali darsan sadhanapada 19)

    All The natures of prakriti remains in 4 states.

    1-visesha--- sthula tattva (grosser physical state)--pancikruta pancha bhuta,5 jnanendriya,5 karmendriya (15 tattva)

    2-Avishesa---sukhma tattva--(pancha tanmatra,mind/antahkaranam)

    3-Lingabastha--aham tattva,mahatattva (also called linga sarira)

    4-ALINGABASTHA--Mula prakriti which is cit...who is equivalent term with brahman.we can"t say this illusion as it will be akin to say brahman as illusion.

    BG 7th-sloka 4,5-- Krishna says " earth,water,air,ether,fire,mind,intelligent and ahamkar are 8types of nature of my MAYA.this prakritia is INFERIOR...APARA PRAKRITI. Apart from this,i have one higher prakriti called PARA which is responsible for holding the creation.

    This PARA-PRAKRITI is in due course in association with purusa becomes Apara-prakriti along the cause-effect relationship line.

    This mula or para-prakriti is mahashakti kundalini.she is eternal,VIDYA ,sanatani and ishwari and reason for bondage and moksha.

    how one prakriti can be responsible for apparent two fates of a jiva.the anology given is--Just like a beautiful lady becomes the reason of happiness for the husband and reason of sorrow for 2nd wife and reason of hell-delusion for unsuccessful lover. Similarly mahashakti in the form of Vidya and avidya is responsible for bondage and freedom.

    Vedanta says Maya is asat,its is imagined upon the adhsthan swaroop brahman.so without the source,maya can"t have separate existence,so maya is asat.But for a sadhaka who worsip brahman as mother has to worship Prakritia
    as adhisthan upon which brahman exist. The reason is one can"t worship brahman without prakrita and vice versa. Simply one without other is un-imaginable.

    As in vaishnavism,--radha sango yada bhati tada madanmohanah.

    Without radha,krishna is no longer madanmohan.

    so why is that

    1-In working knowledge --maya is real

    2-in paramarthika knowledge--its inferior or equivalent to illusion

    3-in debate-- sat-asat and anirvachaniya

    Any thought?
    Last edited by anirvan; 12 March 2012 at 05:37 AM.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    Namaste Anirvan,

    I would like to point out a few things here :

    a) PurANa are authority only to the extent they conform to Vedas (includes VedAnta). So, by quoting PurANas we can't prove anything unless we support it with references from Vedas.

    b) Brahman is not synonymous with MAyA ... this will be against VedAnta. Yes, MAyA springs out naturally from Brahman creating the three states of Brahman as I have earlier explained.

    c) You said :
    Quote Originally Posted by Anirvan
    Vedanta says Maya is asat,its is imagined upon the adhsthan swaroop brahman.so without the source,maya can have separate existence,so maya is asat.But for a sadhaka who worsip brahman as mother has to worship Prakritia as adhisthan upon which brahman exist. The reason is one can"t worship brahman without prakrita and vice versa. Simply one without other is un-imaginable.
    MAyA is Asat from the fourth state which is the untainted state of Brahman i.e. Turiya, otherwise within the three states it is rock solid "real". MAyA can have no separate existence ! You can't see an attribute of a thing without the existence of that thing. This attribute is the property of that the thing. Like, when Carbon is in graphite state of existence, it appears black. So, the black color is imposed upon Carbon in its Graphite state. However, when the same Carbon takes the state of diamond, the black color goes.

    What I am trying to explain that MAyA is an inherent property of Brahman in the three states of Brahman. It disappears in the fourth state. Shruti says that the Fourth state is the Self and that has to be known (MAndukya Upanishad), and this state is the real state on which the three states appear and dissolve. The three states have been described as "creation" due to vibration of the Consciousness like when a firebrand is vibrated/moved a number of shapes are created but they don't really exist.

    d) You said :
    Quote Originally Posted by Anirvan
    1-In working knowledge --maya is real

    2-in paramarthika knowledge--its inferior or equivalent to illusion
    You are right.

    Imho, The third proposition can be slightly improved :
    "Anivarchinya means, 'That which cannot be described'. MAyA is Anivarchinya".

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    QUOTE=devotee;]Namaste Anirvan,

    What I am trying to explain that MAyA is an inherent property of Brahman in the three states of Brahman. It disappears in the fourth state. Shruti says that the Fourth state is the Self and that has to be known (MAndukya Upanishad), and this state is the real state on which the three states appear and dissolve.
    namaste Devotee,

    You are absolutely right.but look in a different angel.You told maya is inherent property in lower 3 states.but dissapears in 4th state. But dissapears to where? if one dissapears,then how can it come back again.My point is it is inherent property of Brahman in all states except that its remains unmanifested in 4th state.this is called LAYABHAVA/laya-yoga. But again is there any point of time when this maya is not remain in manifested state.

    Again Brahman never stays at any time without its prakriti as totally absent.Its like matter-antimatter state.like alternatively spinning in positive and negative state like in electromagnetic current.

    So how can we so bluntly say that prakriti is illusion ans inferior.After all she is the sole responsible for our moksha as brahman is nirguna,actionless. So how asat prakriti can give us sat state--that is moksha???

    This constant spinning-antispinning movement of that sat elements is the very basis of Leela.thats why in vaishnava darsana,its sin to differentiate between RADHA-KRISHNA.The transient sat form krishna-transient asat form Radah-------this light-darkness game is the sole reason of sristi leela,raasa leela and all form of leela.

    So if we outrightly discard this eternally sat-asat game of brahman and solely focus on Brahman alone in sat form,are not we missing the very ESSENCE of the spiritual treasure?
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    [quote=anirvan;79988]
    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste,

    if we admit the true existence of the universe,then we have to admit that everything has been originated from cit-brahman. but if we deny the existence of the universe,then it implies there is only brahman and no second.

    so what is the real solution? is this universe merely illusion? or it has relative existence or as per vaishnava thought its eternally existing? as they ask if its illusion,then why its not absolving after one gets moksha?

    Then what is mayavad?is it universally valid or it is a relative conditioning for a advita sadhak to reach that state?

    I get afraid when there is so much text from the scriptures. I admire you all being so much knowledgeable.

    My little analysis :

    The confusion comes as we are trying to see inside out. Trying to conceive through the 5 senses of the body which by itself are the limitations.

    We appreciate only those which we can perceive and not what we cannot. There is a transperant glass, which the eye does not see. But there is a a tiny bit of the glass coagulated to form a speck - we can see that and we get stuck.

    As we close down the senses, the known universe cease to exist. If we increase the senses, the known universe becomes part of the whole perceivable bramhan and again cease to exist separately.

    So both ways we find that the known universe is a function of the senses we have. Maya is function of the shape and attributes which the brahman manifests through. Brahman is the lowest common denominator of all. Just like gross matter (all types) is out of energy. Similarly all are out of brahman.

    Moksha does not have much to do with this perception. Moksha is the state where we indentify ourselves with "I" which is out of unchanging and permanent conciousness and is ever living. The body changes but "I" stays. I remains through sleep, unconciousness, coma and death.

    Mayabad is like real who do not use filter to remove the body induced limitations. But for the wise men, it is all brahman.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    Namaste Anirvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by anirvan View Post
    You are absolutely right.but look in a different angel.You told maya is inherent property in lower 3 states.but dissapears in 4th state. But dissapears to where? if one dissapears,then how can it come back again.My point is it is inherent property of Brahman in all states except that its remains unmanifested in 4th state.this is called LAYABHAVA/laya-yoga. But again is there any point of time when this maya is not remain in manifested state.
    Actually, neither Self/Brahman nor MAyA can be described as it is ... because we are trying to understand through mind and this mind has to dissolve for the fourth to be "seen". Self is nothing but mind seeing outwards.

    Coming back to your question : I gave you an example of diamond and graphite. Both are pure 100 % carbon. Now where does the blackness of tyhe graphite go when graphite becomes a diamond or where does the sparkle of diamond go when it would be converted into graphite ? So, this question : "Disappears to where ?" is not a valid question. The Carbon has all properties of all isotopes of Carbon and particular properties become manifest depending upon the particular state of Carbon while others are hidden.

    Again, this statement that "if one dissapears,then how can it come back again." is not valid. Though I have used the example of Carbon, it is not exactly applicable to Self/Brahman. It is slightly complicated to understand. This false being having false bondage gets falsely liberated ... once liberated, the same being is never deluded. That is the meaning of "MAyA ends" ... but it (MAyA) continues for all other beings.

    Again Brahman never stays at any time without its prakriti as totally absent.Its like matter-antimatter state.like alternatively spinning in positive and negative state like in electromagnetic current.
    There is no Prakriti in the fourth state of Brahman. It is Nirguna state i.e. without any property which is perceived in Prakriti. It is like the vibration of molecules. As long as the molecules vibrate we get we get various forms and properties of things created due to vibration of molecules (like water changing into ice, liquid water and steam, supre heated steam) ... but there is no such property remaining when the vibrations totally die out that is at Absolute Temperature (only theoretically possible, per science).

    So how can we so bluntly say that prakriti is illusion ans inferior.After all she is the sole responsible for our moksha as brahman is nirguna,actionless. So how asat prakriti can give us sat state--that is moksha???
    In reality there is no being who is bound, there is no bondage and there is no liberation. That is the stand of the Shruti. Brahman is Nirguna but acts by its property of creating three states like dream-world projected by the mind of the sleeping person. So, in fact, there is no action. There is neither Sat nor Asat. These concepts arise only after creation of mind & these words have no meaning in absolute sense.

    This constant spinning-antispinning movement of that sat elements is the very basis of Leela.thats why in vaishnava darsana,its sin to differentiate between RADHA-KRISHNA.The transient sat form krishna-transient asat form Radah-------this light-darkness game is the sole reason of sristi leela,raasa leela and all form of leela.
    RAdhA is nothing but Prakriti and Krishna is nothing but God-state i.e. the third state of Brahman. Together they create this Leela. In fact, Krishna is Nirguna Brahman too ... and from Him arise all the three states.

    So if we outrightly discard this eternally sat-asat game of brahman and solely focus on Brahman alone in sat form,are not we missing the very ESSENCE of the spiritual treasure?
    Why do we discard MAyA and accept only the Nirguna Brahman ? This is because our thoughts are the vibrations of Consciousness that we are. These thoughts create as they are. So, purification of thoughts is necessary. This Thinking is to be taken very seriously. Your thoughts create and present to you what you strongly believe in. So, the mind has to be fixed on Reality and by VichArA all that is Non-Self i.e. MAyA has to be discarded.

    Also, the Self in only the fourth state is free from MAyA. Attaining that state is our goal ... Shruti says so. The deep impressions of MAyA in various births are not easy to wipe out. That is why Meditation, VichArA, listening to Advaitic teachers etc. are necessary.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    I'd like to offer the following for one's kind consideration. I am not the final authority on this matter, but give some ideas on this māyā that brings peace to my mind.

    māyā , a baseline
    What is this māyā ( there are many posts on this subject) ? It is rooted ( √ ) in or measuring and this 'yā' is restraining . Yet many say māyā is the notion of illusion. How are these two i.e. illusion and measuring/restraining , connected?

    Māyā is the illusion that the Infinite can be measured out -or-restrained. It is the idea that this Infinite Being that we experience as the universe ( and what it contains) is made of parts, finite items, zillions of them, but still finite , within boundaries. It is the boundless measured into the boundaries , this is the illusion of avidya ( ignorance).

    I look at an iceberg and see only the top sticking out of the water. I think oh that is all there is to this mountain of ice. Yet I miss the mass of the iceberg which is below the surface - the full structure that only a piece appears above the water. It is the illusion I am seeing the whole thing by only seeing the part.

    In ignorance māyā drives individuality; yet one that is fully realized, this māyā becomes the joy of diversity on how many ways this Being expresses itself in Fullness. Then one 'sees' sarvaṁ sarvātamkam or everything is everything else. The unity of creation. In kaśmir śaivism this transformation of māyā (of limits) becomes the play and display of śakti.

    another view...
    This world (meaning universe) is infinite and whole, yet we see duality everywhere. This whole universe comes from the Supreme (anuttara) some like to call sivabhaṭṭāra, others brahman, and others perhaps viṣṇu.

    If the universe is ~illusion~ then from where it comes from is part and parcel part of the illusion too, and this is not possible with the Supreme. The universe comes from the emanation of the Supreme, from That (tad-ekam, That One). To say the universe is an illusion is to suggest 'That' is an illusion. That cannot be so , as this universe is none other then this Being.
    But in our ignorance we see duality, differences, due to the blemishes within our self ( some call moha&#185. With this ignorance in tact our vision is impaired and we see only diversity. We are within saṅkoca (limitation) that comes with ignorance. But ignorance of what? Our own Self which is the same as the Supreme.

    We are the Divine in condensed form. When we come to experience this fully then there is no mis-giving's on what is what.

    praṇām
    1. moha is bewilderment , perplexity , error. Some like to say it is the darkness or delusion of mind preventing the discernment of truth and leading people to believe in the reality of worldly objects.
    Last edited by yajvan; 12 March 2012 at 09:30 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Anirvan,
    Again, this statement that "if one dissapears,then how can it come back again." is not valid. Though I have used the example of Carbon, it is not exactly applicable to Self/Brahman.
    I told above statement to point out the eternality of this game of creation.And definitely prakriti is inherent part of brahman even in 4th state,but since its not vibration state,so unmanifested.But its there like a dormant DNA.

    Actually, neither Self/Brahman nor MAyA can be described as it is ... because we are trying to understand through mind and this mind has to dissolve for the fourth to be "seen". Self is nothing but mind seeing outwards.
    In reality there is no being who is bound, there is no bondage and there is no liberation. creating three states like dream-world projected by the mind of the sleeping person. So, in fact, there is no action. There is neither Sat nor Asat. These concepts arise only after creation of mind & these words have no meaning in absolute sense.

    Why do we discard MAyA and accept only the Nirguna Brahman ? This is because our thoughts are the vibrations of Consciousness that we are.
    I completely agree with you with all above statements.If we realize that fourth state is some permanent/eternal state,then the arguments is over.But problem is as long as you are in samadhi/turiya,its ok.But then why brahman has never remained in that state ever.why this eternal game is going on.

    Will you give your thought regarding status of brahman in turiya/nirguna state? is it in SAKSHI BHAVA(witness) to the leela of creation or some jada/empty state.If carbon is staying in diamond state forever,i am more than happy to form hexagonal bond with ,but if carbon is going to decay and expelled me out,i dont want to be carbon again?
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: Who is MAYA OR PRAKRITI & its attributes?

    [[QUOTE]QUOTE=kallol;80090]
    Quote Originally Posted by anirvan View Post
    Maya is function of the shape and attributes which the brahman manifests through. Brahman is the lowest common denominator of all. Just like gross matter (all types) is out of energy. Similarly all are out of brahman.
    Namaste Kallol,will you elaborate the red lined meanings?
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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