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Thread: States of existence

  1. #11
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    Re: States of existence

    Namaste Naya,

    Quote Originally Posted by NayaSurya View Post
    But, i have seen this world not with these eyes. i can do this when deeply meditating. The first time it happened i thought my eyes had popped open. So the next few times i put mask on...and could still see the whole room.
    It is highly astonishing but not impossible. The mind that sees and experiences is both within and without. That is why the Yogis can see what is happening at a great distance or as you say with their eyes closed.

    Secondly, my own mother come, after losing her body and show me visions of her home and the things being done, all correct. We can perceive this realm without flesh and blood eyes.
    This is has been very difficult for me ... as once gone, I have never ever felt that the person gone has come to me. I feel there are some people who can "feel" such things better than others. My elder brother too claims that he sometimes sees some near and dear ones who left us. ... I can't say anything on this issue.

    Thirdly, when sleeping...i hear everything. It's unfortunate but very true. If you play a movie beside me, i will watch this movie in my sleep. One time, a very dear doctor would come with the nurse into ICU. He was a tremendous talent, a Laotian surgeon. When I would be asleep he would come quietly in the darkness into my clients room. I would be up and answering his questions without being fully awake, even helping them with certain procedures. He took me aside and say..."in all my life i never meet one as you who can speak to me so clearly, yet be so clearly not awake. The nurse agreed.
    Amazing !

    But, as a child, i never used an alarm clock. I would simply repeat the time i need to be awake in my head a few times and it worked every time. What portion of me was keeping time? It's the aware part i think.
    My elder brother claims this too. So, it must be possible. I for myself always use an alarm-clock ... it can be risky if the above tactics fails !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  2. #12
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    Re: States of existence

    As my age has creeped up, i can not trust my inner alarm either. Too many count on me to get them up. We have four alarms which go off every morning at around 5:30 AM


    When i told my husband tonight about this thread he laughed and said it was so many babies which made me able to listen while sleeping.

    At your Beloved Feet, Devotee...for not thinking the above things seem silly. You never hear me speak of them on here too much...i don't feel they are anything super. But, it is good also to hear others have same experiences.

    I wanted to also add. When i see the room sometimes when my eyes are closed during meditation. The room could be pitch black and yet when i see it...it's a dim twilight, not totally dark as it is in real life. One time when this happened i decided to try to get my hand to move (they don't work while i am like this) anyway...after many moment i was able to move my hand a bit and wave it in front of my face and i saw my hand...back lit by this twilight lighting. Of course...moving my hand caused the rest of me to come up and...so it was only a moment before the image faded and i had to restart...because moving my body brings me up and out of that. But, for another who has had this experience, it will tell you that i am speaking also from true experience.
    Last edited by NayaSurya; 22 March 2012 at 10:32 PM.

  3. #13
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    Re: States of existence

    Dear NS,

    As usual amazing. Unfortuantely for most of the people with special mind to use this body extraordinarily, the ego spoils the opportunity.

    It is remarkable that you could see through this special capability and appreciate the higher science and God's touch.

    Dear Maya,

    As I understand, God, in advaita, is all inclusive though the nature is consciousness. He is everthing matter or energy or mind or consciousness.

    The minds of lower forms contribute towards and create the minds of higher forms. The cell of the body to organs of body to body to society to country to world towards God. This resultant vibration becomes the source for the creation.

    The constant fluctuations we have in mind are the vibrations and energy waves. The frequency, wavelength and quality varies with person to person, creature to creature. This is like the scenario in ocean. Small waves, big waves, different frequencies, different nature, - all together - constantly churning (Shiva's cosmic dance) and sometimes due to this a clash of waves and a bigger wave with froth (visible universe) is created.

    The world of physical entity like the visible universe, the invisible physcical entity like energy, the subtle matter and the consciousness are all different - playing on each other and influencing each other at the same time.

    Consciousness being the purest form does not get polluted or changed (properties) or influenced (as it is the source) but others get affected in their qualities and attributes.

    The theory is getting clearer. It requires some more analysis.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  4. #14

    Re: States of existence

    Namaste kallol, all,

    Thank you kallol for sharing your thoughts. If I might humbly add some thought to your thread; it would appear that we differ somewhat in our understanding of nature or prakriti.

    I shall share a few thoughts; you are, of course, free to dissmiss or absorb as you see fit.


    1. Matter is acted upon by energies (mechanical, electrical, electromagnetics, chemical, nuclear, etc) which might be manifested in different forms. So energy is the driver of the matter.

    Energy is subtler than matter. This becomes the base of my thoughts
    To my mind your starting posture is not correct, this is of course just my opinion; the difference in thought being that, to my mind, matter is energy. This has been demonstrated by the famous equation "E=mc²" and the subsequent application of.

    I like to think of matter as a vibration of energy, different elements being made by different frequencies of vibration; matter is in effect, sound.

    Brahman is the whisperer of that sound upon prakriti, by way of the guna, which can be viewed, in effect, as the dimensions of the space in which said energy vibrates.


    2. Now Energy becomes matter through, as we know, big bang. So energy must have been acted upon. We know it is out of God's mind, which again is the culmination of all minds. Can I assume that mind is driver of the energy ?

    So should I assume that mind is subtler than energy ?
    Energy is made into matter by stars; also by black holes in the form of hawking radiation. Energy is continually bubbling into and out of existence in the vacuum, or what is better described as; either. This is the underlying principle of hawking radiation.

    Mind can be carried upon energy, I like to visualise this as a fractal boundary. One infinite boundary, which exists between prakriti and purusha. If purusha is the energy of conciousness, mind is a gross form of that energy which requires the correct formation of prakriti and of course prana, in order to manifest within material vibration. This to my mind, is clearly fractal in nature, as is the universe (just visualise the spirals of a cauliflowers arrangement).

    From this postulate; we can zoom in to different areas of the model, to derive other tatvas.

    3. Again the driver of the mind is consciousness. Does it mean that consciousness is subtler than mind ?

    So the flow is matter - energy - minds - consciousness in opposite i.e.

    consciousness to mind to energy to matter.
    Can we not also say that conciousness is driven by manas (mind and heart)?

    I-ness is very subtile!

    4. Again energy only converts to matter so does it mean consciousnes converts to mind, mind to energy and then energy to matter ? though all should be partial conversions only.


    Energy is matter, the key here is in realising that energy vibrates in different dimensions and at different frequencies, those of matter are the guna; they create an infinite boundary with those of conciousness. The mind is constructed of all our sensory organs of action, cognition and subtitle elements. These all go into forming the elements of mAyA and all that she entails.

    5. Now this, if true, triggers further thoughts. Matters unmanifests unto energy, energy to minds, minds to consciousness. Every stage the attributes are lost unto the higher level where the essence and abstracts are retained. However the individual layers remain in the higher layer in potential state.

    6. Now this should mean that the individual minds (and thereby God's mind) get unmanifested unto consciousness. So the next creation (of miinds, energy and matter) will be out of that essence.

    7. Though consciousness does not have direct link with matter but then the whole of the chain is out of conciousness. That also brings the notion that everything is nothing but consciousness.


    Here I think you are describing, the fractal boundary between prakti and purusha, which include as stated above;
    elements of mAyA and all that she entails.

    The key here really is the fractal non linear nature of this boundary; as the universe folds back on its self.

    8. Are these the 4 states or the 4th state is beyond this i.e. beyond consciousness. If so how it is defined ? Does it mean that consciousness is out of something ? If yes what is that ?


    Their is a very eloquent description of the 4th state in
    Richard Feynman's auto biographical book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" When he describes the moment of thought and experience as he realises the fundamental nature of "That", which leads to his developing of Quantum Electro Dynamics. For a scientist this experience is very fleeting as it is so connected to the material world, this is why I believe it makes a very good example to those who pursue it this helps to keep it relative to the world about us and easier to understand. I will try to find this passage so as to quote him ...

    These are of course, thoughts derived from my limited knowledge and understanding, I am studying kashmir shavism so as to help formulate the images in my mind, into a conversant language. Please feel free to remark any errors I might have transmitted. Understanding is my life's goal; any means to a greater understanding will be greatly appreciated!

    Thank you for expressing your thoughts; I hope that mine clarify rather than confuse your current minds image of that.


    praNAma

    mana
    Last edited by Mana; 23 March 2012 at 06:36 AM.

  5. #15
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    Re: States of existence

    Dear Mana,

    At this point, I am in no position to contradict or support the observations on the thoughts, I had.

    I am absorbing as much as possible through the discussions, nature, subtle clues, etc - final aim is to establish the connect between the prakriti and purusha - matter (gross and subtle) and consciousness.

    I have not mentioned anything as my firm belief. These are questions in my mind towards the journey from Prakriti to Purusha. These are the driving forces for me to dive deeper in the Sanatana Dharma or Eternal Knowledge.

    I wish I could have just read the scriptures and believed but that does not satisfy me, until and unless I realise myself. That is the pain and joy, I carry through out the journey.

    Points those triggered my thoughts :

    1. All is consciousness
    2. Consciousness is attributeless, unchanging, permanent and source
    3. Matter is changing, temporary and with attributes
    4. Consciousness is permanent and matter is out of it or the changes are out of it.

    If everything is consciousness then what are the relations between the apparent realities of gross matter (physcical matter and energy), subtle matter and consciousness ?
    How they flow from each other ?
    Why is conciousness changeless and others changing ?

    Maya part does not belong to this chain, so I am not bringing that into picture.

    Hence the fleeting thoughts and subsequent discussions.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  6. #16

    Re: States of existence

    Naya,
    I can wake myself up at any time too. It feels very "Upanishadish"

    I'm in deep sleep and then poof I'm suddenly awake usually a few minutes before the time I told myself to wake up.
    Who is waking me up? Is my Real Self actually watching the clock? Am I waking myself up a few minutes before in case it takes a while to get me up?

    Maya

  7. #17

    Re: States of existence

    Namaste kallol,

    I think your approach is superb, to my mind the deepest bhakti comes from realisation; to realise one must visualise.

    Might I propose that this model might resemble a lotus rather than a chain, mAyA is thus an inextricable part of its beauty?

    A thread of many strands woven naturally by the illusion of time.

    Keep it up; this thread is a superb inquiry! Your enquiry helps me to better understand; I thank you profoundly for that!

    Love,

    mana

  8. #18
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    Re: States of existence

    Dear Mana,

    The journey in the quest of knowledge moves from plateau to plateau each time higher than previous till we reach the final plateau.

    Each of the lower plateaus are temporary time of fulfillment, assimilation and then the next question comes. That again drives up to the next plateau

    The reason I did not consider Maya in this (I might be wrong also) is that Maya is a product of mind in conjuction with the senses we have. This is precursor to the karmas we go through, the desires and egos we have, etc. Maya is not real but the actions out of it which might be mental or physical are real. Maya is a notion, it is a mirage, it is our wrong perception. Now this real belongs to the prakriti part only, which again is temporary in nature.

    The chain as I said might not be the right word as it might not be serial.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  9. #19
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    Re: States of existence

    Quote Originally Posted by Maya3 View Post
    Naya,
    I can wake myself up at any time too. It feels very "Upanishadish"

    I'm in deep sleep and then poof I'm suddenly awake usually a few minutes before the time I told myself to wake up.
    Who is waking me up? Is my Real Self actually watching the clock? Am I waking myself up a few minutes before in case it takes a while to get me up?

    Maya
    Dear Maya,

    There is a body clock. This clock regulates many activities which includes hunger, sleep, etc.

    If the body is trained to wake at certain time, it develops that habit. I have this still.

    Again you will find body can be trained to carry out tasks automatically without the directions from mind. So even you are on phone or in deep engrossing discussion with friend, your car reaches known destinations.

    The capabilities of the body is still to be fully explored. We see certain special skills in different people which provokes the thought on the capabilities of body.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  10. #20
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    Re: States of existence

    Namaste Kallol,

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    There is a body clock. This clock regulates many activities which includes hunger, sleep, etc.

    If the body is trained to wake at certain time, it develops that habit. I have this still.
    I read about this body-clock or biological clock in my childhood. However, now I look at it differently. May be if you question this concept critically, you will have new clues to nature of Consciousness. Can you locate this biological clock anywhere in the brain/body ? Who is aware of this clock while you are asleep ?

    Again you will find body can be trained to carry out tasks automatically without the directions from mind. So even you are on phone or in deep engrossing discussion with friend, your car reaches known destinations.

    The capabilities of the body is still to be fully explored. We see certain special skills in different people which provokes the thought on the capabilities of body.
    You are wrong, here. Body cannot be trained in anything. Mind can be trained. Body without mind's power is dead meat. Now, if the mind is engaged in talking to a friend or listening to its favourite music who is taking care of driving correctly ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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