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Thread: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

  1. #1
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    Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    OM Namasivaya,

    Does one has to follow a religious practice to realize SELF? Can a tribal man or woman isolated in an amazon jungle , with no knowledge of any of the scriptures find the answer by themselves?

    In day to day lives I have encountered several gentle souls across various spectrum (meat eater , liquor seller , gambler , philanderer) who are extremely good people in every other activity . They don’t cheat , are charitable , are kind and wont hurt another human. I am very hesitant to draw judgment on them for that one defect that I perceive they have , especially when I know that I myself need to grow a lot in spiritual path. Is it possible for them to realize SELF despite of the ‘one’ defect I perceive that they have?

    I consider myself extremely fortunate to have access to the guidance laid out by great Indian sages , but can something this important (I mean realizing SELF) be a draw of luck based on your circumstances of birth & religion?

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    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    OM Namasivaya,
    Can a tribal man or woman isolated in an amazon jungle , with no knowledge of any of the scriptures find the answer by themselves?
    Hello !

    I think the answer is in this part. Tribal man or woman should not be considered as less than us, especally spiritually. They live in the forest, they fully know they are a part of it and understand and revere every little bit of what they have, and what they see. All the rituals and initiations are the most ancient use the humanity had before the scripture to awake to the greatness and grow up spiritually. You have a poster of Shakti in your home, they have the forest as Shakti. It's only an exemple, but I think the principle is the same.


    On another subject, twice a year I go with my friends in parties, and I drink a glass of beer. Yet, maybe I am wrong but it's my view, I do not see this as "Oh my, I comitted a terrible, terrible sin ! I am doomed!".
    As long as there is no excess and one is fully aware of what he do, but cares not crossing the lines that could lead him/her into something that could harm his body, harm someone or harm his knowledge and judgement, In my opinion it's still okay.

    The gates of the realizing self will not close to me because I am born in a country where cooking meat is a part of the culture, or because I drink two glasses of beer every year. I never got drunk, I only eat meat once a week now and I reduce little by little my consumption (as it is VERY difficult in my country, for cultural reasons, to be fully vegetarian) and I never got wild or had sex with anybody random at parties or when I had the occasion.

    Being aware, but being born in a different country with difficulties in some subject. Yet being reasonable in every point and practicing charity, not cheating. I don't think people like that deserve any bad judgement...Knowing that and trying to change, isn't already a be set on the path of realisation? There are many ways, all lead to the same.

    Again, it's only my humble opinion, I know I am certainly wrong to think that but still, I am confident about the ability of the human being to still reasonable.

    Aum~
    ~Aum Namah Shivaya~

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    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    Namaste Seeker,

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    Does one has to follow a religious practice to realize SELF? Can a tribal man or woman isolated in an amazon jungle , with no knowledge of any of the scriptures find the answer by themselves?

    In day to day lives I have encountered several gentle souls across various spectrum (meat eater , liquor seller , gambler , philanderer) who are extremely good people in every other activity . They don’t cheat , are charitable , are kind and wont hurt another human. I am very hesitant to draw judgment on them for that one defect that I perceive they have , especially when I know that I myself need to grow a lot in spiritual path. Is it possible for them to realize SELF despite of the ‘one’ defect I perceive that they have?

    I consider myself extremely fortunate to have access to the guidance laid out by great Indian sages , but can something this important (I mean realizing SELF) be a draw of luck based on your circumstances of birth & religion?
    One's birth and environment is decided by their past Karmas. So, normally, if Karmas are ripe enough for Self-realisation, the birth and environment is decided accordingly. Your assumption that birth and religion is just by chance. It is not. There is nothing in this universe which is just by chance. It appears to be so but it is not.

    Having said so, a few cases of Self-realisation have been recorded even when the birth and environment were not as conducive for Self-realisation as it appears to us. I shall give some examples here :

    a) BirsA MundA was otherwise an ordinary typical tribal man born in the forests of Jharkhand part of India. A very good soul who was extraordinarily brave and powerful & is credited to have a killed a fully grown Bengal tiger just by his own hands. He attained sudden God-realisation/Self-Realisation one day. Today, he is worshiped among the native tribals as God.

    b) Nisargadatta Maharaj was a very ordinary person. A poor man who lived by making and selling "bidis" (hand-made cigarette type thing by using leaves of a particular tree (Tendu) and tobacco). He too attained Self-realisation suddenly and became a well-known Advaita teacher.

    c) Ramana Maharishi was a normal Brahmin child when one day he felt that this worldly affair was not suited to him. He too attained Self-realisation without even the help of a Guru. He developed a somewhat unique way of Self-realisation which is not there in the scriptures.

    d) Though IslAm is a hard-core religion based on duality and even threatens to kill people who can claim otherwise, it produced many Self-realised souls in the form of Sufism. One of the Self-realised man, named "Hallaz" was brutally killed by the hard-core IslAmists when he claimed, "I am the Truth".

    *****

    However, Self-realisation is not so easily available even to people who are born with scriptures and Gurus around .... if that is the misconception. How many Self-realised persons we find in the rest of the so-called civilised world ?

    The world is created in a very typical manner and Self-realisation has been made not-so-easy. If you are a good man doing good karmas you are rewarded by good birth and favourable chances in life. Self-realisation doesn't happen just by doing good karmas or worshiping a form of God or reading scriptures or even by donating wealth to the poor etc etc. The basic requirement of Self-realisation is VairAgya/detachment from world and worldly pleasures and desires. Unless that is there, other merits are well rewarded in the form of good luck and life full of pleasures and power but Self-realisation doesn't occur. Karmas, including worshiping God in any form and way (action with Samkalp and desires) don't create conducive environment for Self-realisation ... cessation of Karmas (action devoid of samkalpa and desires) does.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    There are many good things people have offered in the above posts... let me offer , if a may, just an idea or two.

    When realization comes without any guidence/knowledge how does one know they have achieved this thing we call mokṣa , awakening, some call kaivalya¹ .

    You see this is the pickle. If I am on a road heading to a destination , how do I know if I am there? It is by knowledge and experience. Both are needed to make the experience rewarding and understood.

    praām


    1. kaivalya - perfect isolation ; detachment from all other connections , detachment of the soul from matter or further transmigrations , ; unity.
    Some call this enlightenment
    Last edited by yajvan; 28 March 2012 at 07:24 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    Your query leaves a smile on my face !

    The Self-Realisation is not akin to reaching any destination that we don't know. It is just discovering what it was all along. When we want to reach a destination, we are sure only by comparison of previously stored data about that place and the information available on reaching that place. However, this is not the case with Self-realisation. There is no knower which is separate from that is known/knowledge.

    It is the Consciousness which realises Itself ... Consciousness is Omniscient or shall we say, "Omniscience". So, where is the necessity to validate the authenticity of the destination ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #6

    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    There have been several good comments already. The key is karma in previous life. There are many who have attained self realization at young age without reading scriptures and doing structured sadhana. Nisargadatta, and Ramana have already been given as examples by devoteeji. Even the Acharyal from Sringeri who is considered as a jivan mukta is stated to have read Vedanta after attaining Moksha! There is the case of Shirdi sai baba but some question if he was a jivan mukta - that is a different discussion.

    I like to give the example of playing a game. For some the day they pick up the bat/ball they are so good (past life karma?). But for most there is a structured way of learning the game. There is sadhana, need of Guru. same with Moksha - scriptures, traditional Guru who knows Sastra, sadhana is essential.

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    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    The Self-Realisation is not akin to reaching any destination that we don't know. It is just discovering what it was all along.

    It is the Consciousness which realises Itself ... Consciousness is Omniscient or shall we say, "Omniscience". So, where is the necessity to validate the authenticity of the destination ?
    What you say is so, yet there can be doubts. Even śukadeva son of vyāsa pondered this ; he was also the narrator of the bhāgavata-purāṇa to king parikṣit, and pondered this question ' is this it ?' . This story can be read in the mahopaniṣad ( Some write maha upaniṣad) . There are 6 chapters (prapāṭhaka) to this upaniṣad. The story of śukadeva appears in chapter 2. He, a realized being still has doubts on this being the final abode of fullness.

    He asks his father vyāsa-ji various questions but this does not satisfy śukadeva. Hence vyāsa-ji suggests that śukadeva visit king janaka to pursue more of his questions. It is here where śukadeva finds his peace.

    I will leave the reading to you. Yet as my teacher has explained to us, it is the one that already resides in fullness that can say to another, yes this is it, you are that.You see it comes in stages - and the final stage one ask's 'is this the final station, the more then the most ?'.
    This (then) becomes the value of the māhavākya-s confirming ones final arrival.

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 29 March 2012 at 04:48 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8
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    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    Namaste Yajvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    What you say is so, yet there can be doubts. Even śukadeva son of vyāsa pondered this ; he was also the narrator of the bhāgavata-purāṇa to king parikṣit, and pondered this question ' is this it ?' . This story can be read in the mahopaniṣad ( Some write maha upaniṣad) . There are 6 chapters (prapāṭhaka) to this upaniṣad. The story of śukadeva appears in chapter 2. He, a realized being still has doubts on this being the final abode of fullness.

    He asks his father vyāsa-ji various questions but this does not satisfy śukadeva. Hence vyāsa-ji suggests that śukadeva visit king janaka to pursue more of his questions. It is here where śukadeva finds his peace.

    I will leave the reading to you. Yet as my teacher has explained to us, it is the one that already resides in fullness that can say to another, yes this is it, you are that.You see it comes in stages - and the final stage one ask's 'is this the final station, the more then the most ?'.
    This (then) becomes the value of the māhavākya-s confirming ones final arrival.

    praṇām
    I have read Mahopanishad ... not only once but quite a few times. What you say is true. However, I wanted to say something else. Even by hearing the Truth from someone you may not know the Truth. VyAsji himself was Self-realised & he didn't say anything less than what king Janak said. So, what was the reason ... why was Janak more effective than VyAs ji ?

    Imho, that there is no confirmation needed from anyone when Self-realisation occurs. When Self Realisation occured to Ramana Maharishi, no one told him that he was Self-realised and same is the case of Nisargadatta MahArAj. My Guru attained Self-realisation when he got final push from his Guru after years of meditation and KriyA yoga but when it occurred by the grace of his Guru, he went into Nirvikalpa SamAdhi for a long time ... who was there to seek confirmation even if he wanted it ?

    However, it is just my opinion based on my readings. The reality will be known only when the destination is attained ... whether confirmation is needed or not will be finally known only at that time.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Imho, that there is no confirmation needed from anyone when Self-realisation occurs. When Self Realisation occured to Ramana Maharishi, no one told him that he was Self-realised and same is the case of Nisargadatta MahArAj. My Guru attained Self-realisation when he got final push from his Guru after years of meditation and KriyA yoga but when it occurred by the grace of his Guru, he went into Nirvikalpa SamAdhi for a long time ... who was there to seek confirmation even if he wanted it ?

    However, it is just my opinion based on my readings. The reality will be known only when the destination is attained ... whether confirmation is needed or not will be finally known only at that time.
    OM
    Yes, I see your point and I agree on the offers you have given. Yet let's recall some of the benefits of the people you have offered. They happened to be in a conducive environment for this realization and support to occur.

    If we look to the orginal post:
    Can a tribal man or woman isolated in an amazon jungle , with no knowledge of any of the scriptures find the answer by themselves?
    These people falling into a higher level of awareness , from where will they get their support ? This is just one idea and only offer it to compare and contrast some additional ideas below.


    It is our upaniṣad-s from realized beings that gives us our support. I will assume for each person the experience of unfoldment will/can be different, this I assume we both will agree. Yet from my studies & instruction from my teacher full realization does not come all at once. By His grace it comes (unfolds) in steps or stages. My teacher spent much time here to define it so when people have this experience it is appreciated and understood i.e. being prepared.

    My point is when the last unfoldment occurs, one may ask is this the final unfoldment ? In kaśmir śaivism these last few steps are defined by one's experience with the universe.
    I can see and understand that a person being possessed of the SELF might just say this is the final station if they did not have additional knowledge of higher possible states. Yet there is more to go if one wishes to continue. SELF-realization becomes the baseline, the entry point for additional unfoldment ( on the level of the senses) to continue.

    I hope for all we have this experience and can report back.


    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Is realizing SELF restricted to a subset?

    To be enable for self-realization,one need not born with some specific set of requirements ...like to born as good brahmin,pious environment,availability of scripture,Guru and above all conducive spiritual environment,though this is very much prevalent in most of known spiritually advanced saint/seers. The reason is the karmic samskar is very different and so much diverse that even after self-realization,many have to suffer some karmic fruits,like Ramakrishna had to suffer bronchial cancer and died of it.

    All are not born with complete vairagya...because of some attachments from previous birth,and present birth circumstanced make him renounce everything complete.

    The fundamental is " spiritual development is independent of Past karma".Otherwise nobody will ever be able to reach self-realization. At best we can burn our PRARABDHA(destined fruit of karma) KARMA,never SANCHITA KARMA(infinite birth"s karma).

    Its after knowing self and reaching KKAIVALYA,this infinite store house of sanchita karma gets destroyed.but prarabdha has to be still enjoyed.

    For an example...one person has finished one life"s all karma,also reached at a almost the last state of self-realization,(may be equivalent to 99.999% ),but died.. Hehas to born again with a new set of Prarabdha to complete that remaining 0.001% sadhna,but he has to complete whole prarabdha again.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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