Kalki

[Omkara]

If it is literal,the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that vishnu is the supreme being,is it not?

[Twilightdance]

If it is literal,the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that vishnu is the supreme being,is it not?

Not really, not in the context of Gita solely.

Also, in KS philosophy supreme beings are not hard personalities with 4 hands or 5 faces who must be different species. He need not have even bothered about this.

He said he wanted to talk only about the esoteric meaning of Gita as outer meaning has been commented by others, so allegory is assumed to start with. I would have just have liked more if his philosophy could encompass both so called inner and outer realities-the reality of war as war as much as knowledge-ignorance.

[Omkara]

What exactly is the ontological position of vishnu in KS?And can you explain the theory of pancabrahma to me?I have only read vague and conflicting accounts so far.

[Omkara]

Abhinavagupta's interpretation does have support in some Upanishads like Jabala.

[Twilightdance]

What exactly is the ontological position of vishnu in KS?And can you explain the theory of pancabrahma to me?I have only read vague and conflicting accounts so far.

From what very little reading habit I have, I haven't come across Vishnu in KS. But Shiva in KS is all creation starting from Shiva and ending with Prithivi, all kalas starting from nivritti kala, all bhuvanas and all dieties. So vishnu will be just shiva limiting himself in some way like everything else.

But what exact self limitation of shiva makes him vishnu, I don't know. I am not sure if there is any reference. If I go by my hunch I'll equate vishnu with the state of of mantresvar or Ishwara, one of the suddha vidyas.

So philosophically even if one takes Krishna to be Vishnu [not necessary], it makes precious little difference. As far as Gita is considered, AB could have taken Krishna as Shiva.

He chose allegorical interpretation I think because he only wanted to comment on the yoga aspect, as he says in the beginning of the work.

Also much of KS polemics is not about who is the bigger God, but the nature of reality. They disagree with buddhist not because buddha is a bigger God, but because dependent origination goes head on with svatantra of Shiva.

Pancabrahma is a vedic concept adopted in siddhanta system. Apart from being various sources of knowledge they have to do with the mahabhutas.

I am not sure how they are placed in the monistic system but should be aspects of mantramaheswar/sadashiva. I agree not very meaningful accounts can be found, and they are given a miss in description of the 36 tattvas. While mahabhutas are explicitly manifested within prakriti, their potency in state of i-consciousness of sadashiva should be the 5 faces of shiva.

I would also like to know what, if any, is the shiva agama opinion on this.

[MahaHrada]

In the 36 Tattvas the Panchabrahmas usually are referred to 3 of the 5 Shuddha Tattvas.
Suddhavidya tattva: Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, as activity of shiva: sristhi sthithi samhara (creation, preservation, dissolution)
Ishvara Tattva: Ishvara or Mahesvara, activity of shiva: tirodhana shakti, (concealment, i.e Maya, Avidya)
Sadashiva tattva: Sadashiva, activity of shiva is anugraha (revealing or grace)
In the Malinivijayottara Tantra which is important for trika Kaula (i.e Kashmir shaivaism) four of the Panchabrahmas rule the 4 classes of Tattvas the earthly group consisting of one tattva only, (Prithvi) is ruled by by Brahma, Twenty-three. tattvas from water upward are ruled by Vishnu.
That is Brahma and Vishnu rule the group of Ashuddha Tattvas
Next seven tattvas (Shuddha Ashuddha Tattvas) are ruled by Rudra first 3 Shuddha Tattvas are ruled by Ishvara, (Shuddhavidya, Ishvara, Sadashiva tattvas)
The last two (shiva shakti tattvas) belong to Shiva.
Therefore judging from Malinivijayottara Tantra Brahma and Vishnu are shoved to a low status in the impure worlds in Kashmir Shaivaism.

The fourfold classification of the Tattwas from the evolutionistic standpoint is termed the earthly, the material, the mayic and the Saktic. Among these the first is pervaded by Dharika Kala. It has only one Tattwa, one letter, one world, one mantra represented by 'ksha' and sixteen worlds. Apyayani Kala pervades the second. Twenty-three. principles from water upwards and as many letters (ta and others) are assigned to it. Five words, five mantras and fifty-six worlds are included in it. The third is permeated by the Bodhini Kala. Seven principles, twenty-eight worlds, seven letters, two words and two mantras are found in it. The last is covered by Utpuyini and there are three principles, three letters, eighteen worlds, one word and one mantra in this class. The final principle is called Siva, As such, it is under the Avakasada kala and has sixteen vowels, one mantra and one word. The above four classes are respectively presided over by Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra and Isvara.
Madhusudan Kaul
http://www.shivashakti.com/malini.htm

[Twilightdance]

In the 36 Tattvas the Panchabrahmas usually are referred to 3 of the 5 Shuddha Tattvas.
Suddhavidya tattva: Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, as activity of shiva: sristhi sthithi samhara (creation, preservation, dissolution)
Ishvara Tattva: Ishvara or Mahesvara, activity of shiva: tirodhana shakti, (concealment, i.e Maya, Avidya)
Sadashiva tattva: Sadashiva, activity of shiva is anugraha (revealing or grace)
In the Malinivijayottara Tantra which is important for trika Kaula (i.e Kashmir shaivaism) four of the Panchabrahmas rule the 4 classes of Tattvas the earthly group consisting of one tattva only, (Prithvi) is ruled by by Brahma, Twenty-three. tattvas from water upward are ruled by Vishnu.
That is Brahma and Vishnu rule the group of Ashuddha Tattvas
Next seven tattvas (Shuddha Ashuddha Tattvas) are ruled by Rudra first 3 Shuddha Tattvas are ruled by Ishvara, (Shuddhavidya, Ishvara, Sadashiva tattvas)
The last two (shiva shakti tattvas) belong to Shiva.
Therefore judging from Malinivijayottara Tantra Brahma and Vishnu are shoved to a low status in the impure worlds in Kashmir Shaivaism.

The fourfold classification of the Tattwas from the evolutionistic standpoint is termed the earthly, the material, the mayic and the Saktic. Among these the first is pervaded by Dharika Kala. It has only one Tattwa, one letter, one world, one mantra represented by 'ksha' and sixteen worlds. Apyayani Kala pervades the second. Twenty-three. principles from water upwards and as many letters (ta and others) are assigned to it. Five words, five mantras and fifty-six worlds are included in it. The third is permeated by the Bodhini Kala. Seven principles, twenty-eight worlds, seven letters, two words and two mantras are found in it. The last is covered by Utpuyini and there are three principles, three letters, eighteen worlds, one word and one mantra in this class. The final principle is called Siva, As such, it is under the Avakasada kala and has sixteen vowels, one mantra and one word. The above four classes are respectively presided over by Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra and Isvara.
Madhusudan Kaul
http://www.shivashakti.com/malini.htm

Thanks, I knew this but had forgotten , but I had Tatpurusha-Vamadeva-Aghora etc in mind, the 5 faces in pancavaktra who are also regarded as pancabrahman, whom I always have regarded as subtle potential of the mahabhutas...but maybe here too the same classification as with brahma-vishnu-rudra-ishvar-shiva is applicable. In the subtle mahabhuta scheme we perhaps don't need the 36 tattavs but just 25 of samkhya+mahat(am)/vijnana+ishwara.

But not sure if vishnu as ruler of pratistha kala [apyayani above] should be mixed with vishnu of vaishnavism.

[Omkara]

Are they five separate entities?Do they posess individuality?Do they have souls?Are each of the omnipotebt,omniscuent etc?Or are they names of the same being?

[MahaHrada]

Thanks, I knew this but had forgotten , but I had Tatpurusha-Vamadeva-Aghora etc in mind, the 5 faces in pancavaktra who are also regarded as pancabrahman, whom I always have regarded as subtle version of mahabhutas...but maybe here too the same classification as with brahma-vishnu-rudra-ishvar-shiva is applicable.

But not sure if vishnu as ruler of pratistha kala [apyayani above] should be mixed with vishnu of vaishnavism.

I think Tatpurusha etc. again relate to the 5 Brahmas, and the 5 Brahmas certainly also relate to the Mahabhutas, since one can equate many of the groups of 5 Tattvas to the Mahabhutas. Like sadashiva= anugraha shakti=hearing= speech=sound= all relate to akasha tattva and so on for the other 4 Mahabhutas. But not only tattvas also other groups of 5 like the Panchakrityas (tirodhana anugraha etc.) or shaktis like Cit, Ananda, Icchha, Jnana, Kriya shaktis and countless other like the 5 Kleshas of Yoga or the Panchavaktras.
KS shaivas position regarding Vishnu and Brahma is not typical of agamic and tantric thought, i just read in a commentary to the Svacchanda Bhairava tantra that Kshemaraja had big problems to equate the concept of the splitting of the egg of Brahma which was mentioned in the Tantra, with freedon from rebirth, because Kashmir Shaivas relate Brahma only to the lowest tattva, Prithvi so "Splitting the egg of Brahma" could not mean liberation for Kshemaraja but only release to the sphere of Vishnu, and he had a lot of trouble trying to twist the content of the Svacchanda Bhairava tantra to fit with his KS sectarian bias.

[Omkara]

I think adopting Srikanthacharyas views on the matter would have solved the problem of interpreting the swacchandabhairava.Can someone answer the rest of my questions two posts back?