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Thread: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

  1. #21
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    Re: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

    नमस्ते,

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralProjectee View Post
    You have to remember that I grew up Christian. So I am trying to reconcile a lake of fire with a stay in hell that is not forever.
    But your assumption is that hell exists. But if you ask in a Hindu forum, then people are not likely to say that hell exists, eternal or otherwise.

    Hell does not need to exist. Souls do not need to suffer after death.

    ॐ नमः शिवाय

  2. #22

    Re: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

    Namaste AP,

    There is rather a lot of plagiarism in the Bible, it was, as I keep saying, compiled by a Roman Emperor, years after the fact; interesting comparisons can be made between the imagery of Ashtanga yoga as well, but this is not the section of the forum for discussing that.

    Never the less I will give an example: Walking on water is an obvious nod of recognition to the imagery of these sutra, but you would have to read them to discover this; best not make revelations of your excitement to a Hindu; they are, many of them, rather bored by the whole topic having no need to reconsecrate their dharma.

    praNAma

    mana
    Last edited by Mana; 15 April 2012 at 03:27 AM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralProjectee View Post
    The Atman would dissolve into Brahman once all karma is exhausted and you are not connected with anything since it was all burned off. You would just instantly be absorbed into Brahman since Brahman is everywhere. Theoretically at least.
    If I may let me offer this for your kind consideration. Within many schools found in sanātana dharma , ātman is non-different from brahman. You see, brahman is seemless. Brahman does not stop when it enters us, and now ātman takes over, it ( brahman) is without break or pause.
    Using your terms of burning off karma, then what is left is none other then brahman. There is no merging necessary.

    Take a container filled with water and sand. Filter out the sand . What remains ? Water. That water is the same, even when the sand was in it. Perhaps if it was sturred up the water may look cloudy, yet the water was always water , with or without the sand.

    Another view. Take a container. This container 'frames in' the space inside. Yet is it really containing it ? Break the container ( say it was a clay pot). The space has not changed its quality. This space is whole, equal everywhere in space. There was not a place where the space on the outside of the container existed and the space in the container started, yet we think this exists due to the container's physical form.

    Now this space I am referring to is ākāśa - space ( not air or oxygen). This space is found with objects or without objects. It is that space which allows objects to exist; we can say it has the property called avakāśa - to make room, space. Like that one can think of brahman as the same. Yet it is the same inside the pot ( the human) or outside the pot ( all of existance, which in fact houses the human also).

    praām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #24

    Re: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

    I don't understand your analigies yajvan. Lets just drop this subject I don't think it's going anywhere.

    Peace!



  5. #25
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    Post Re: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

    Namaste AP,

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralProjectee View Post
    If there is a lake of fire, and if things that enter are just dissolved in it, would OR could the person once dissolved instantly enter the unmanifest. So all people that enter the lake of fire would be there until all karma is exhausted. They would just reach the point of total pain and suffering and then bam you are in the unmanifest? Is that possible?
    Let me explain you the Hindus' take on your question :

    1. Unmanifest is not where God is. Unmanifest is simply which is not manifest.
    2. There are two states of this Jeeva (which you and I are) :

    a) First is this Gross world or the waking state of Existence, i.e. this world as you see when you are alive, human beings and other beings etc. In this state, a being has various types of hungers which the being tries to satisfy by "using" various objects through its sense organs. This is called the Waking State of Self.
    b) The other state of existence is Subtle World where the entire world is created by mental impressions and the beings don't have gross body or sense organs. Here too, they have all the hungers of the Waking State but the things which can satisfy the hunger are mental, the sense organs are mental and satisfaction or craving too are mental alone. This is called the Dreaming state of the Self as the objects, beings and everything in this state are as in dreams.This is the world that awaits us when our body perishes i.e. before birth and after death.

    So, when your body is destroyed in the lake of fire or by whatever means, the body alone is destroyed but the Jeeva (Conditioned Consciousness acting as an individual) which was in the body continues without a body. In this mental world, the Jeeva enjoys mental objects or suffers mental pains. He feels the feeling of being burnt without a physical fire and even without having a body which can burn. Similarly he also enjoys all sensual pleasures without any sense organ or a body.

    So, your question is answered above. The body is just an envelope which encases the Jeeva. The envelope is physically destructible but the Jeeva being a Conditioned Consciousness is not physically destructible. The Karmas are attached to the Jeeva and not to the body. Your Body and the Jeeva are entirely different things. Your body is not more than what your shirt is for your body. This Jeeva keeps changing one body after the another and can also stay without a body.

    God is neither in the Waking state, nor in the Dreaming state. God has its separate Third state which is PrAjna state or Deep-sleep state. He is the origin and end of all things created in the first two states. He is not part of the two states but He is the causal state of the two states and He is Undifferentiated Mass of Consciousness who is the Controller, Omniscient and Omnipotent.

    There is another state which is called the "Fourth" where all the above three states disappear and which is the substratum of all the above three states but let's leave it here as your question is already answered.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 16 April 2012 at 01:16 AM. Reason: Typo Errors !
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #26
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    Re: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

    AP,
    Hindusim is a different paradigm compared to Christianity.
    I am paraphrasing your question 'Is there any process that purifies the soul , like fire purifying lumps of ore into metal' and the secondary assumption you have is 'this needs to be a painful process because everything good(moksha) needs to balanced by bad(swiming in the lake of fire?)'. I will proceed to answer based on my paraphrasing and based on the meagre knowledge I have accumulated so far.
    Attainment of moksha need not be painful , if you are sincere in your search. All creations (including your and me) have the creators thumbprint in them. It is like a seed of giant red tree having all that is needed to become a 300 feet tree. Given the right conditions , the seed grows into a tree. Likewise we all have the imprints of Brahman within us and Self inquiry will convert this little spark into a wonderful sun like brightness.
    Many of us will need a teacher (Guru) to lead us on the path , but some may accomplish this feet all by themselves.
    But by no means this need to be associated with pain. Karmic effects are for those who exit their life without attainment of moksha.

  7. #27

    Re: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

    Thanks all you for answering my questions that I have been having.

    Peace!

  8. #28
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    Re: Lake of fire and the unmanifest, theoretical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralProjectee View Post
    I'm sure you could come up with some good answers to the question. "If I won a billion dollars, what would I do with it?"

    Peace!
    "If all the world were paper
    And all the sea were ink,
    If all the trees were bread and cheese
    What would we do for drink?

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