Believing in Gods? Questions from a Beginner

[seekinganswers]

I have been interested in spirituality for a long, long time. I found various faiths such as Christianity and Judaism unsatisfying. I found Buddhism to be too "empty". One religious path that is appealing to me in some ways is Hinduism.

I see karma and reincarnation to be self evident when thinking of the big scheme of things, the whole process of life.


That being said I do have some serious questions which I hope none take offense but instead care to elaborate for me-

The Bhagavad-Gita makes references to the Sun God as well as Gods such as Indra and also makes a reference to a sacrificial ritual in order to make crops grow (or so i read).

Coming from the 21st century, psychology in general says that early civilization created the concept of gods to explain natural phenomenon such as the sun, moon, weather. It is generally known in science today that these processes of nature are controlled by natural forces. That being said, how can one come to believe in these gods like the sun god when the sun is viewed as an object with hydrogen explosions under the control of gravity with no living beings inside the sun nor the moon?

Also, it seems incredibly hard to believe that a blue man who plays a flute and gets involved with gopis can be god?

Lastly, and this is challenging, if you believe that we are truly individuals that each of us is a separte atman that will exist for eternity, does that mean that when personality changes occur due to brain damage or drug abuse, that its simply the atman has a distorted communication with the brain?

And if you subscribe to advaita philosophy, why would we want to lose our concept of individuality(even it being false) and be left with simply the feeling of "I" when that is essentially being non-existent. And if you are simply brahman, which is simply the observer, not the thinker, then brahman is relying on maya to tell him its true nature, is it not?


These are a multitude of questions and i would appreciate answers and guidance. Thank you

[Arjuni]

Namast�,

Seekinganswers - an appropriate name given your first post here. Welcome!

I am not an Advaitin, so I will leave your final questions to more knowledgeable members of the forum, and try to answer a few of the others instead.

It is a common Western idea, the notion that "primitive" peoples originally developed "gods" as a way of explaining natural phenomena which had no logic otherwise. You may be interested to know that this idea has a racist origin; in the 1800s, when Darwin was writing and the idea of evolution was taking science by storm, anthropologists and religious scholars thought to apply this new scientific thinking to human culture. They believed it was possible to trace how societies "evolve" from the overly-complex, "primitive" way of thinking (as represented by polytheistic groups), to the simple "advanced" monotheistic ones (usually represented by the authors' own cultures). These men placed Western monotheism at the top of the religious summit, and then graded other faiths and groups on their "achievement" of the same. And it began with an innately wrong assumption: that people only have spiritual longings because of frustration with the inexplicable, and/or curiosity about the natural world.

The writings of Auguste Comte, L.H. Morgan, and E.B. Tylor are particularly illuminating if you care to read further, but suffice it to say: The idea that God splits into "gods," only in the absence of the Western scientific method and modern technology, is a recent and highly-biased invention. Not to mention that Hinduism is, in a sense, ultimately monotheistic, and that the word "Deva," which we use for beings like Śiva or Indra, does not really translate to "God" in the Greco-Roman sense.

Western thinking tells us that the subtle workings of scientific forces were explained by the gross forms of Gods who controlled those forces. But consider that it may be the other way around: that this entire universe is the gross physical manifestation of something much higher and more subtle. The energy of Sūrya is seen, with our fleshy physical eyes, as a shining orb in the sky, governed by the limited and measurable forces that our science has grasped so far - but the subtle spiritual reality of Sūrya is something far greater, more vast and incomprehensible, and his complete truth may only be grasped by going deeper than the obvious input of the sensory world.

In worshipping "the Sun" or performing a "sacrificial ritual" (called yaj�a) for crops or rain, a person is not trying to propitiate nature in return for something desirable. If those physical benefits manifest, that is an excellent side benefit, and certainly it is not wrong to ask the Divine for help when there is need. But the selfish thought is not the ultimate goalof the worship, nor the correct mindset with which to perform that worship. Underlying the cosmos is a cosmic law, a cosmic order, and humans have a place in that order. It is by performing worship - whether it be through the ancient yaj�a, or by reciting mantras, or by praying to "the blue man" (whom I hope you now realise represents something far greater, and is depicted a certain way to remind us of his qualities!) - that we proudly take that place, and join into the vast cosmic dance that is already moving, like a droplet of rain flowing into a quickly-rushing river.

To understand the answers that Hinduism offers, one must think in a different manner than what may be customary. Hinduism is a religion of wonder, innocence, and delight; it is not a rejection of science, but rather, a different sort of science that incorporates everything, and does not immediately reject what is subjective or not physically visible.

For myself, I do not believe that the origin of any faith is to be found in simplistic bowing to pretty nature things. But even if that were the truth here, I would not be any less Hindu. Many people nowadays worship power, money, or sex, though claiming to follow something or someone else. If Hinduism really did begin with the worship of the sun, moon, wind, and rain, I don't consider that to be a bad thing.

Best wishes on your searching, and I hope that you find the answers you are seeking - whether it be here among Hindus, or on some other path to the Supreme.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté SA,

I have been interested in spirituality for a long, long time. I found various faiths such as Christianity and Judaism unsatisfying. I found Buddhism to be too "empty". One religious path that is appealing to me in some ways is Hinduism.

I see karma and reincarnation to be self evident when thinking of the big scheme of things, the whole process of life.


That being said I do have some serious questions which I hope none take offense but instead care to elaborate for me-

The Bhagavad-Gita makes references to the Sun God as well as Gods such as Indra and also makes a reference to a sacrificial ritual in order to make crops grow (or so i read).

Coming from the 21st century, psychology in general says that early civilization created the concept of gods to explain natural phenomenon such as the sun, moon, weather. It is generally known in science today that these processes of nature are controlled by natural forces. That being said, how can one come to believe in these gods like the sun god when the sun is viewed as an object with hydrogen explosions under the control of gravity with no living beings inside the sun nor the moon?

Also, it seems incredibly hard to believe that a blue man who plays a flute and gets involved with gopis can be god?

Lastly, and this is challenging, if you believe that we are truly individuals that each of us is a separte atman that will exist for eternity, does that mean that when personality changes occur due to brain damage or drug abuse, that its simply the atman has a distorted communication with the brain?

And if you subscribe to advaita philosophy, why would we want to lose our concept of individuality(even it being false) and be left with simply the feeling of "I" when that is essentially being non-existent. And if you are simply brahman, which is simply the observer, not the thinker, then brahman is relying on maya to tell him its true nature, is it not?

These are a multitude of questions and i would appreciate answers and guidance. Thank you

Your questions are reasonable and can be addressed. Yet all the ideas/questions co-mingled into one post is like trying to take a drink from a fire hose.

There are many here willing to help and respond accordingly - yet it will serve all the readers and authors to throddle back the questions to just a few. We then can do a excellent job in the proper answering of them.

So, let's start at the beginning... what is top of mind and brings you doubts or really captures your interest ?






praṇām

[devotee]

Namasdte SA,

The Bhagavad-Gita makes references to the Sun God as well as Gods such as Indra and also makes a reference to a sacrificial ritual in order to make crops grow (or so i read).

Coming from the 21st century, psychology in general says that early civilization created the concept of gods to explain natural phenomenon such as the sun, moon, weather. It is generally known in science today that these processes of nature are controlled by natural forces. That being said, how can one come to believe in these gods like the sun god when the sun is viewed as an object with hydrogen explosions under the control of gravity with no living beings inside the sun nor the moon?

The verses that you are referring to are talking of Karma-KAnda as per the Purva MimAnsa or the Samhita portion of the VedAs. It is an altogether different field and true in itself. I am surprised why you chose these verses which are in extreme minority of the whole message of Bhagwad Gita, and it is not the main theme or the aim of Bhagwad Gita. That makes me doubt your intentions as some IslAmists do in one garb or the other here posing as a simple Truth-seeker !

Anyway, my dear friend, I would give you benefit of doubt. The worshiping of Sun or any other deities has its own science as I said earlier. There is nothing which is there anywhere which is not the expression of the Infinite Consciousness, the Brahman. By worshiping any object in whatever name or form you worship the same Brahman as Brahman is all there is. Within the three states of MAyic existence, the third state has been recognised as the God-state and it can be worshiped in any form and name. If the devotion is right and from the right person, the prayers offered to God has its desired effects. If you don't believe it, you better leave spirituality and engage yourself in some other things which appeal to you. This belief, this faith is very important ... you have no idea what powers the prayers have.

What do you know about the Sun ? You know nothing about the Sun ! How was the Sun Born ? How so much fuel accumulated in the Sun to burn for billions of years ?Where was it all stored before Big Bang? How is this atomic reaction so much in control for so many billions of years ? Is it just a chance that the amount of heat reaching us from the Sun is just enough to create a temperature band that supports life ? Why is it not 100 degree above or 100 degree below ? Why isn't Earth 100 KM nearer or farther the Sun ? Why is there so much regularity in atomic structure ?

We are in 21st Century but we don't know what Life is & how it is regulated. We don't know, how and why the various organs in our own body work so much in a disciplined manner. We don't know how life comes into being and where it goes after death. We don't know who we are and why we are here on this earth and we claim to know everything !

Let's accept that Science has not much idea on spirituality. It is not its basic area of interest. It is not correct to ridicule any aspect of spirituality on the basis of "scientific knowledge". This "Scientific Knowledge" doesn't reveal even a tiny fraction of the mystery that governs this world.

Also, it seems incredibly hard to believe that a blue man who plays a flute and gets involved with gopis can be god?

Oh ! If you claim that then you must know what and who God is. I am in search of God for quite long. Please tell me how does God look like and where he lives.

Lastly, and this is challenging, if you believe that we are truly individuals that each of us is a separte atman that will exist for eternity, does that mean that when personality changes occur due to brain damage or drug abuse, that its simply the atman has a distorted communication with the brain?

You have to understand these before trying to understand the correct answer to you question :

a) What is Atman ? From your question it is clear that you have no idea of what Atman is.

b) What do you mean by "truly individual" ? Where did you get this idea that you are "truly individual" ?

c) Who are "you" ? Are you your personality or something inside your brain ? When you are in deep sleep, there is no waking "you". What keeps your breath, your heart-beat, your body-defense-mechanism etc. etc. working intelligently while you are awake or while you are sleeping ? Is there any other consciousness living in your body other than "you" ? When you die, this "you" in you leaves the body ... why does your body deteriorate once that "you" leaves the body but why same thing doesn't happen when the body is asleep ?

And if you subscribe to advaita philosophy, why would we want to lose our concept of individuality(even it being false) and be left with simply the feeling of "I" when that is essentially being non-existent. And if you are simply brahman, which is simply the observer, not the thinker, then brahman is relying on maya to tell him its true nature, is it not?

Your question is highly unintelligent and nonsensical from Advaita point of view. You need to understand carefully the basic tenets of Advaita before you can formulate a logical question for the doubts that bother you. Your questions are like a child studying in Class V tryig to question the validity of the Theory of Relativity or Schrodinger's equation !

So, my advice is that you start asking very simple questions.

OM

[wundermonk]

Also, it seems incredibly hard to believe that a blue man who plays a flute and gets involved with gopis can be god?

Oh ! If you claim that then you must know what and who God is. I am in search of God for quite long. Please tell me how does God look like and where he lives.

This is an excellent challenge.

Dear seekinganswers:

Please let us know your thoughts on what God's omnipotence entails. Can God make a stone he cannot lift? In short, what can God do and what cannot God do?

In general, there is the attribute-sovereignity paradox that every theist faces the moment he assigns attributes to his God. I made a post on that here.

[Aum namah Śivāya]

नमस्ते,

The problem is that you are approaching it as though you were the arbiter of truth, telling God that He must prove Himself to you, not the other way around. The spiritual path takes much humility. It is not a scientific endeavor.

The Bhagavad-Gita makes references to the Sun God as well as Gods such as Indra and also makes a reference to a sacrificial ritual in order to make crops grow (or so i read).

Coming from the 21st century, psychology in general says that early civilization created the concept of gods to explain natural phenomenon such as the sun, moon, weather. It is generally known in science today that these processes of nature are controlled by natural forces. That being said, how can one come to believe in these gods like the sun god when the sun is viewed as an object with hydrogen explosions under the control of gravity with no living beings inside the sun nor the moon?

How do you know this to be true? Kant says that we cannot know anything but the representation of reality. The sun as we see it is only the representation. How do you know there is not a God behind it, or whose physical representation is that sun? Science purports to know everything, yet it cannot. How do you know that there are not divine forces at work behind the natural everyday reality of the world?

If you try to see the world through a more magical lens, you might be able to see this. Everything is not reducible down to mathematical equations. The world is magical. It is God's lila (sport, game). See it through a child's eyes. This is the beauty of Hinduism.

Also, it seems incredibly hard to believe that a blue man who plays a flute and gets involved with gopis can be god?

Why not? Can't God have humor, enjoyment, fun? You have a preconceived notion of who God should be.

Lastly, and this is challenging, if you believe that we are truly individuals that each of us is a separte atman that will exist for eternity, does that mean that when personality changes occur due to brain damage or drug abuse, that its simply the atman has a distorted communication with the brain?

You're being far too literal here. Try that magical lens, then we'll discuss this question if it still stands.

And if you subscribe to advaita philosophy, why would we want to lose our concept of individuality(even it being false) and be left with simply the feeling of "I" when that is essentially being non-existent. And if you are simply brahman, which is simply the observer, not the thinker, then brahman is relying on maya to tell him its true nature, is it not?

Because our apparent individuality is blocking us from the utter joy and bliss that one knows when realizing one's union with God.

See if you can ask less questions of God, and let God show Himself to you. Then all questions will fall away.

ॐ नमः शिवाय

[seekinganswers]

I highly appreciate all the answers that were given and thank you all for giving the time to reply. No, i definately did not come here to bash faith, on the contrary I am very interested in spirituality and will take all these answers to heart and continue reading helpful material.

Thanks

[Mana]

I see karma and reincarnation to be self evident when thinking of the big scheme of things, the whole process of life.

Namaste seekinganswers

Welcome to the forum.

Might I humbly sudgest that you take a look at all the various notions of yoga. This culture has evolved to help one practise, from which point you may find it all be come much clearer to you; your affiliations.

The idols and gods are memory triggers to many, which stimulate the remembrance of a state of conciousness, or for others, whole passages of text, so don't throw out the baby with the bath water just yet.

The way in which you have spoken of Karma and reincarnation in a global manor, give hints to your visual perception; you should get on with this notion like a house on fire.

This vast body of knowledge is imbued with philosophy and science that we who are not initiated can barely begin to grasp. Western psychology has a lot of work to do before it can catch up with the understanding of the human condition which to my mind, importantly, has evolved, rather than being a construct of subjective ego.

You might like to take a look at This I think that he may well have influenced modern maths and physicists with is talk of the manifold nature of time. There is also wonderful information on the different paths of yoga, Bhakti, Karma, Jnana, Raja etc ...

So take your time, relax and enjoy the path.

praNAma

mana

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

To my fellow HDF members... it seems best ( IMHO) to be easy about this and avoid being critical of our guest asking questions. Let's allow our guest to collect his/her thoughts and ask questions in some semblance of order. We will avoid being all over the map on these items and we just may run the possibility of confusing not only the guest but our daily HDF readers.


That said, seekinganswers, Where do you wish to start first ? The sun, or with kṛṣṇa-jī or multiple devata ( referred to as gods) ? Lets try and do it sequentially and in the series that is in your mind - other wise its just a free-for-all.

praṇām

[Jainarayan]

Namaste.

The idols and gods are memory triggers to many, which stimulate the remembrance of a state of conciousness

Sanctioned by Sri Krishna Himself:

"For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied." B.G. 12.5

Therefore, the bhakti-yogi accepts the Deity of Krishna as worshipable because there is some bodily conception fixed in the mind, which can thus be applied. Of course, worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form within the temple is not idol worship. http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/articles...125/Page1.html

"I am in everyone�s heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity." B.G. 7.21

http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/articles...721/Page1.html