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Thread: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

  1. #11
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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    This is the teaching of a new age movement. A "Church" founded by a western Guru, which mixes up Shaiva Siddhanta teachings, Theosophy, Christiantity, Buddhism and diverse New age teachings. In the traditional indian agamic Shaivaism also called Shaiva Siddhanta, the souls, bondage and Shiva are eternal. The concept of fully merging into Shiva does not exist in agamic Shaivaism and i am not aware of any hindu tradition who teaches that the atma can cease to exist. This idea must have been adopted from Buddhism because it is a buddhist belief that Nirvana is cessation, but wherever he got this idea from, it was not taken from Hinduism.

    "Eternal Entities
    Saiva Siddhanta believes in the three eternal entities of God, Soul and Bondage (materials of bondage). These are called Pati, Pasu and Pasam respectively in Siddhanta philosophy. Pati means Lord (of the souls) who is God. Pasam means bondage. Pasu means that which is under bondage. All things known and perceived are included in these three categories.

    According to Saiva Siddhanta God is one, Souls are many and Pasam consists of three impurities (malams) called Anava (anavam), Karma (kanmam) and Maya (mayai). Like Pati who is real and eternal, Pasu and Pasam are also real and eternal.
    "
    Dr. K. Ganesalingam

    http://www.saivaworld.org/pageview.cgi?iD=903&cat=9
    Namaste Mahahrada,

    Thank you for mentioning the traditional Shaiva Siddhanta view. I strongly doubted that the concept of old and young souls that the followers of this church talk about could be a traditional view of the shaiva sampradaya.

    The Church of SS also promotes the idea of lower chakras which are named after the puranic locations of the lower regions of the universe. Do you know whether this idea is already present in agamas and tantras, or is this also a new age invention?
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 25 April 2012 at 12:46 PM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    I think the concept of an eternal soul is clearly expounded by Krishna in the BG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krishna to Arjuna in BG 13:19
    You must understand that both Purusha and Prakriti are without beginning.
    Also, I think the quote Tandava made does not imply that the soul has a beginning.

  3. #13
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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    Namaste Mahahrada,

    Thank you for mentioning the traditional Shaiva Siddhanta view. I strongly doubted that the concept of old and young souls that the followers of the church talk about could be a traditional view of this sampradaya.

    The Church of SS also promotes the idea of lower chakras similar to the puranic idea of the lower regions of the universe. Do you know whether this idea is already present in agamas and tantras, or is this also a new age invention?
    I would recommend to ignore this "church" if one intends to learn about shaiva siddhanta or agamic teachings much of what is taught is highly misleading, in my opinion. Of course this is a new age invention, not that adharas, (body regions) or chakras relate to lokas, but the idea that lower chakras are connected with vices, and higher with virtues, some of the highest attainments are achieved by Kriyas that relate to lower chakras. So there is no sequence of attainments ranging from lower to higher when meditations are done on the chakras. Besides that, underworlds are not lokas for lesser evolved beings or hells, but quite the contrary, some of the dwellers in the patala are more evolved than those of the higher regions. Ideas of young and old souls are culled from theosophy. It must be obvious, even to those of lower intellect that no teaching of hinduism, regardless wheter dvaita or advaita makes any sense if the atman is not eternal, beginningless and without end as well as related in some way to the absolute.

    "The Muni Nárada, after his return from those regions to the skies declared amongst the celestials that Pátála was much more delightful than Indra's heaven. "What," exclaimed the sage, "can be compared to Pátála, where the Nágas are decorated with brilliant and beautiful and pleasure-shedding jewels? who will not delight in Pátála, where the lovely daughters of the Daityas and Dánavas wander about, fascinating even the most austere; where the rays of the sun diffuse light, and not heat, by day; and where the moon shines by night for illumination, not for cold; where the sons of Danu, happy in the enjoyment of delicious viands and strong wines, know not how time passes? There are beautiful groves and streams and lakes where the lotus blows; and the skies are resonant with the Koïl's song. Splendid ornaments, fragrant perfumes, rich unguents, the blended music of the lute and pipe and tabor; these and many other enjoyments are the common portion of the Dánavas, Daityas, and snake-gods, who inhabit the regions of Pátála"

    see this thread:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...9644#post79644
    To not hijack this interesting thread if you have further questions we can continue at that location.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 25 April 2012 at 01:13 PM.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Throwing this thought into the mix.

    What is the meaning of "beginningless"ness? What does Hinduism mean when it says the universe, prakriti, jivas, karma, bondage, etc. are "beginningless"?

    One meaning could be:

    (1)An infinite past.

    Yet another meaning could be:

    (2)A finite past but still uncaused.

    So, in either case, God, universe, prakriti, jivas, karma, bondage etc. are uncaused. They always were.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    I think the concept of an eternal soul is clearly expounded by Krishna in the BG.



    Also, I think the quote Tandava made does not imply that the soul has a beginning.
    However the idea of souls being contunuosly created and destroyed is not new to Hinduism. The tirumantiram says:

    2369 Jiva's Journey to Liberation is Lord's Play

    In the Primal Play of Lord
    Were Jivas created;
    Enveloped in mighty Malas were they;
    Discarding them,
    They realized the Self,
    And besought the Feet
    Of their hoary Lord;
    Thus, they Siva became
    With birth no more to be.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tāṇḍava View Post
    However the idea of souls being contunuosly created and destroyed is not new to Hinduism. The tirumantiram says:

    2369 Jiva's Journey to Liberation is Lord's Play

    In the Primal Play of Lord
    Were Jivas created;
    Enveloped in mighty Malas were they;
    Discarding them,
    They realized the Self,
    And besought the Feet
    Of their hoary Lord;
    Thus, they Siva became
    With birth no more to be.
    These are misquotations and misunderstandings or even deliberate mistranslations. Not a single teaching of Hinduism makes sense if the atman is not eternal beginningless and without end how can there be self realisation or moksha if the self is perishable and has a beginning or an end? These concepts are part of other world religions but are no part of Hinduism. Consult other Shaiva Siddhanta teachers and sources than this new age "church" this will end the confusion.

    Jiva is forever one with Shiva and realisation of this unity (or advaitam) happens when the malas i.e maya shakti is overcome, so this verse states that the self, the atman is eternal, not that it perishes. Creation (or whatever the correct translations of the tamil word really means that is used here) is not creation out of nothing, it means here and generally in the agamas and tantras that by the force of tirodhana shakti, which is Maya the veiling power, the jiva appears in the foreground which means one temporarily "forgets" the true nature of the self, that one is " advaitam" non dual with shiva and by the power of anugraha shakti one remembers this unity.
    Of course nowhere in this process of veiling and revealing his true nature, the atman is created or perishes.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 25 April 2012 at 01:55 PM.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tāṇḍava View Post
    However the idea of souls being contunuosly created and destroyed is not new to Hinduism. The tirumantiram says:

    2369 Jiva's Journey to Liberation is Lord's Play

    In the Primal Play of Lord
    Were Jivas created;
    Enveloped in mighty Malas were they;
    Discarding them,
    They realized the Self,
    And besought the Feet
    Of their hoary Lord;
    Thus, they Siva became
    With birth no more to be.
    "Creation" in Hinduism is more manifestation of the unmanifest. The anology being, the sun shines to reveal itself as well as other pre-existing things.

    This is explained in the Brahma Sutra in the section dealing with the ascription of cruelty and partiality to God. See here.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post

    (2)The universe does NOT have an infinite past but time itself began with the Big Bang. Now, if this is proven true, then clearly, the concept of beginningless Karma takes a hit. But proving that time itself began with the Big Bang is not that trivial. This post may be of interest.
    If time began with the big bang we must also consider that it is only time for this universe. Who is to say time did not exist in the last universe? Perhaps time can only exist with a universe that Brahman is beyond time as well as acting within it.

    It could also be said that time is a play of God. In the final dissolution, when everything is drawn back into God, time ceases to be because it loses all relevance. It only has relevance for those who are aware of it and while God may be aware of time, time really has no power over God.

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Throwing this thought into the mix.

    What is the meaning of "beginningless"ness? What does Hinduism mean when it says the universe, prakriti, jivas, karma, bondage, etc. are "beginningless"?

    One meaning could be:

    (1)An infinite past.

    Yet another meaning could be:

    (2)A finite past but still uncaused.

    So, in either case, God, universe, prakriti, jivas, karma, bondage etc. are uncaused. They always were.
    Wonderful thread Wundermonk.

    Scientists say that time is a dimension like space. In a two dimentional world , one of the space dimensions doesnt exist. may be Brahman resides (for lack of a better term) in a place where time ceases to be a dimension.

    Coming to your main topic, I could think of one scenario

    - scientists make it possible for humans to live forever without any degeneration or vigor

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    Re: Possible defeaters for Hinduism

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    These are misquotations and misunderstandings or even deliberate mistranslations. Not a single teaching of Hinduism makes sense if the atman is not eternal beginningless and without end how can there be self realisation or moksha if the self is perishable and has a beginning or an end? Of course nowhere in this process of veiling and revealing his true nature, the atman is created or perishes.

    To me the argument has to do more with the semantics and less to dowith the conceptualization about the fate of Atman.. Atman transcends janma andmerges with Brahman and as a result Atman (by rejoining Brahman and as a partof THAT and) once for all irreversibly out of JIVA and thus without anymore attachment losing all identity it becomes eternal. Yes there is nophysical destruction per se of Atman at all, for it has no physical nature tobegin with. Its independent identity with a jiva is what we call birth and death,a misnomer obviously, in reality there is neither (birth or death for It). Namaste.

    Excerpts from MundakaUpanishad. (II.ii.1 – III. ii. 11)are as follows: “ This Atman ,resplendent and pure, whom the sinless sannyasins behold residing within thebody, is attained by unceasing practice of truthfulness, austerity, right knowledge,and continence. ……That subtle Atman is to be known by the intellect here in thebody where the prana has entered five fold. When intellect is purified Atmanshines forth……He, the knower of the Self, knows that supreme abode of Brahman, which shinesbrightly and in which the universe rests. Those wise men who, free from desires, worship such a person transcend the seed ofbirth…….

    The Atman cannot be attained by(mere) study of vedas……..He who chooses Atman- by him alone Atman is attained.It is Atman that reveals to the seeker Its true nature. …a wise man striving bystrength and earnestness , his soul enters theAbode of Brahman. Having realized Atman, theseer becomes satisfied with that knowledge. Their souls established in theSupreme Self, they are free from passions, and they are tranquil in mind. Such calm souls, ever devoted to the self, behold everywherethe omnipresent Brahman and in the end enter into It, which is all this…..

    Having well ascertained theSelf, the goal of vedantic knowledge, and having purified their minds throughthe practice of sannyasa, the seers never relaxing their efforts, enjoy heresupreme Immortality and at the time of great end attain complete freedom in Brahman.

    As flowing rivers disappear in thesea, losing their names and forms, so a wise man, freed from name and form,attain the Purusha, who is greater than the Great. He who knows Supreme Brahmanverily becomes Brahman. …He overcomes grief, evil, free from fretters of theheart, he become Immortal.”

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