Possible defeaters for Hinduism

[charitra]

Wunder, if there indeed is a beginning then there ought be be an end to it. So the big bang applies to our own universe not to many more other universes that are coexisting in various stages of evolution around it. MULTIVERSE is the name of the game these days.This, which we call Shristi, is cyclical in existence and is certainly not linear. The collective intelligence of the entire human race from its inception till its demise (remember dinosaurs are extinct) cannot crack the code of Shristi. The parameters are infinite that is the only reason why we cannt ever explain it. Infinite is simply inexplicable.

[Adhvagat]

I would recommend to ignore this "church" if one intends to learn about shaiva siddhanta or agamic teachings much of what is taught is highly misleading, in my opinion. Of course this is a new age invention, not that adharas, (body regions) or chakras relate to lokas, but the idea that lower chakras are connected with vices, and higher with virtues, some of the highest attainments are achieved by Kriyas that relate to lower chakras. So there is no sequence of attainments ranging from lower to higher when meditations are done on the chakras. Besides that, underworlds are not lokas for lesser evolved beings or hells, but quite the contrary, some of the dwellers in the patala are more evolved than those of the higher regions. Ideas of young and old souls are culled from theosophy. It must be obvious, even to those of lower intellect that no teaching of hinduism, regardless wheter dvaita or advaita makes any sense if the atman is not eternal, beginningless and without end as well as related in some way to the absolute.

"The Muni Nárada, after his return from those regions to the skies declared amongst the celestials that Pátála was much more delightful than Indra's heaven. "What," exclaimed the sage, "can be compared to Pátála, where the Nágas are decorated with brilliant and beautiful and pleasure-shedding jewels? who will not delight in Pátála, where the lovely daughters of the Daityas and Dánavas wander about, fascinating even the most austere; where the rays of the sun diffuse light, and not heat, by day; and where the moon shines by night for illumination, not for cold; where the sons of Danu, happy in the enjoyment of delicious viands and strong wines, know not how time passes? There are beautiful groves and streams and lakes where the lotus blows; and the skies are resonant with the Koïl's song. Splendid ornaments, fragrant perfumes, rich unguents, the blended music of the lute and pipe and tabor; these and many other enjoyments are the common portion of the Dánavas, Daityas, and snake-gods, who inhabit the regions of Pátála"

see this thread:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...9644#post79644
To not hijack this interesting thread if you have further questions we can continue at that location.

Do you have pratyaksha of these lokas or are you speaking of convention?

[MahaHrada]

To me the argument has to do more with the semantics and less to do with the conceptualization about the fate of Atman. Atman transcends janma and merges with Brahman and as a result Atman (by rejoining Brahman and as a part of THAT and) once for all irreversibly out of JIVA and thus without anymore attachment losing all identity it becomes eternal. Yes there is nophysical destruction per se of Atman at all, for it has no physical nature tobegin with. Its independent identity with a jiva is what we call birth and death,a misnomer obviously, in reality there is neither (birth or death for It). Namaste.

]Excerpts from MundakaUpanishad. (II.ii.1 – III. ii. 11)are as follows: [/COLOR][COLOR=#0070C0] “ This Atman ,resplendent and pure, whom the sinless sannyasins behold residing within thebody, is attained by unceasing practice of truthfulness, austerity, right knowledge,and continence. ……That subtle Atman is to be known by the intellect here in thebody where the prana has entered five fold. When intellect is purified Atmanshines forth…

Namaste

The Manduka Upanishad does teach the immortality and eternality of the atman and the non duality of the jiva with the absolute. The same teaching is expressed in the Tirumantiram.

To interpret these shastras to mean that the jivas and the atman are created out of nothing at a certain time, by shiva or the absolute and will perish and merge into shiva or the absolute at some later point in time, implying among other things that there are old and young souls, created with a date of expiration, is a misunderstanding.

Atman is not "rejoining Brahman", it is non dual with Brahman. Even Shaiva Siddhanta teachers like Meykandar commonly understood as a dualistic tradition say that Shiva is advaitam, that means non dual, with the Jiva. In Hinduism the self does not perish and there is also no point in time which marks the creation of a jiva or atman such acts are only envisioned in other world religions like Christianity, Islam or Buddhism.
Atman never "looses all identity" since the activity of shakti will continously veil and reveal the true (non dual) nature of the absolute in an ever ongoing process of expansion and contraction in cosmic cycles. Revealation or Veiling of its true nature does not change the atman or the jiva it only impacts his self reflection, since by its very nature it is beyond change.

[charitra]

[quote=MahaHrada;82530]
"The Mandukya Upanishad does teach the immortality and eternality of the atman and the non duality of the jiva with the absolute. The same teaching is expressed in the Tirumantiram."

Iam talking about Mundaka , please note it if you dont mind.
What part of my post mentioned shiva or the sampradaya that preaches the same? Mundaka doesnt mention shiva or vishnu, it describes only Brahman.

"Atman is not "rejoining Brahman", it is non dual with Brahman. "

Please read the last paragraph of of my post, see the analogy of a river joining a sea, both are made of H2 O, water, it is the container or the banks and shores taht are giving us this delusion the 2 are different. It would be nice at this stage if you may please explain the 'end of journey for a jivatma', try to quote the shastras from this moment forward, for iam keen to learn the shastras, time permitting of course. Otherwise the debate will be reduced to a mere personal opinion, in which case i shall excuse myself from the discussion...Now, duality is from the seer point of view so long as as there is an impermanent annamaya kosha associated with Atman (or vice versa), in practical terms there is a 'seeming' duality that goes with it. Atman is not physically separate from Brahman, both Atman and Brahman (in this case) are nirguna or attributeless.


"Atman never "looses all identity" since the activity of shakti will continously veil and reveal the true (non dual) nature of the absolute in an ever ongoing process of expansion and contraction in cosmic cycles. Revealation or Veiling of its true nature does not change the atman or the jiva it only impacts his self reflection, since by its very nature it is beyond change."

Atman, yes indeed never looses its oneness with Brahman. Because all that is permanent has to directly originate and be part of Brahman and is otherwise inseparable or non-dual. Would like to know your definition of moksha or mukti, again quote the shastra of your choice. Namaste.
/quote]

[MahaHrada]

What part of my post mentioned shiva or the sampradaya that preaches the same? Mundaka doesnt mention shiva or vishnu, it describes only Brahman.

Please read the thread again and argue with the shaiva "church" why they used the quote to explain their new age shaivaite teachings or adress Tandava not me. I mention this because of the topic of this thread and of the context of my posting on which you commented. Let me repeat the context for you: Tandava doubted that the eternality of the soul is common to all Hindu darshanas as was proposed by the o.p. and cited the Mundaka upanishad as quoted by an article about the teachings of an american shaiva "church." This thread and our discussion is about the Mundaka upanishad in the context of the interpretation of this american shaiva church. If you want to discuss the teachings of the Mundaka upanishad per se, you have to open another thread.

Please read the last paragraph of of my post, see the analogy of a river joining a sea, both are made....Otherwise the debate will be reduced to a mere personal opinion, in which case i shall excuse myself from the discussion...

This kind request of a discussion of my opinions about atman or the Mundaka upanishad also cannot happen in this thread for the same reason i wrote before, it is way off topic, the topic here is to discuss wether we can find "defeaters" for the following statements that are common to all Hindu darshanas, i quote the o.p.

(1)Existence of a soul/self.
(2)Existence of an afterlife for the soul/self.
(3)The universe has an infinite past. The entire universe goes through cycles of "creation" and "dissolution" but the same material cause/souls are reused across cycles. The souls have beginningless Karma.
(4)There is no "end" state for the universe.

Atman, yes indeed never looses its oneness with Brahman. Because all that is permanent has to directly originate and be part of Brahman and is otherwise inseparable or non-dual. Would like to know your definition of moksha or mukti, again quote the shastra of your choice.

My opinions about Moksha are also off topic and do not belong in this thread. The intention of my postings here is to establish that the idea that the following cited statement is common to all traditions of Hinduism, is valid.

(3)The universe has an infinite past. The entire universe goes through cycles of "creation" and "dissolution" but the same material cause/souls are reused across cycles. The souls have beginningless Karma.

If you agree with this than our discussion is about a non-issue.

I also refuted the following opinion of Tandava quoted from the american shaiva "church" that there exist traditions in Hinduism that teach that souls are created and perish. These are not hindu teachings but stem from a new age "church"

However the idea of souls being contunuosly created and destroyed is not new to Hinduism. The tirumantiram says:
2369 Jiva's Journey to Liberation is Lord's Play
In the Primal Play of Lord
Were Jivas created; ...

and:

This would not be a problem for me, in fact I think it would only be an isue for the strictest dvaita philosophy. Saiva Siddhanta teaches that souls emerge from Shiva and return to him:

If you disagree with the above statements our discussion is about a non-issue. I assume you agreed since you said that this is a semantic difference only. This is by no means only a semantic problem but most certainly one of differences in the interpretations of both the Tirumantiram and the Manduka Upanishad and since you agree that the Upanishad teaches the eternality of the atman, therefore also for you, the objective of this thread, looking for defeaters of the above thesis is valid and should not be doubted. Any discussions beyond that do not belong in this thread.

[Seeker123]

It would be nice at this stage if you may please explain the 'end of journey for a jivatma'

Paramatma = Consciousness, Jivatma = reflected consciousness. Please see Swami Paramarthananda's explanation. You can google for full talk.

"The entire universe is like a big asvatha tree. Brahman is its root. Brahman is changeless, attribute less, non material consciousness which is not available for experiencing as an object. It is all pervasive like space. All pervasive consciousness Paramatma reflected in the mind is called Jivatma. Mind lends consciousness to the body. Only wise people understand that the all pervasive consciousness is available as Jivatma. Every living being should undergo certain amount of pleasures and pains. Until the exhaustion of the allotted experiences, the body and mind will be together. After that Jivatma pulls the mind out of the body and leaves the body. Jivatma travels and takes the next body."

So Moksha/Jnana is nothing but the firm realization that there is nothing but consciosness. In Nirvikalpa Samadhi thoughts cease, mind stops. The distinction between seer, seen, seeing is gone. then what is left? the reflected consciousness which is nothing but the original consciousness.

[wundermonk]

scientists make it possible for humans to live forever without any degeneration or vigor

That would be boring no?

Age would lose its significance. I will be as old as my father, my mother, my son, my daughter, etc.?

[wundermonk]

4-cloning ...cloning from body tissue apart from germ cells

In general, I think you may mean abiogenesis, yes?

Yes, I DO think that would be a defeater for Hinduism. If consciousness is an emergent property of matter, then the concept of self/soul as separate from matter can be laid to rest.

[Tāṇḍava]

In general, I think you may mean abiogenesis, yes?

Yes, I DO think that would be a defeater for Hinduism. If consciousness is an emergent property of matter, then the concept of self/soul as separate from matter can be laid to rest.

Not necessarily. It could be a property of souls that they take presence in matter whenever it takes a suitable form.

[wundermonk]

Not necessarily. It could be a property of souls that they take presence in matter whenever it takes a suitable form.

Possible. Yes. But is not there already a branch of science that holds that mind-body dualism is dead?