Eternal Recurrence

[ZarryT]

We evolve in every birth, whether for the better or for the worse, but never remain the same.

Every birth we take gives us a different set of experiences and this causes different types of karma... to be born into the same family even twice isn't quite possible.

But if the "first birth" produces the set of experiences and types of karma sufficient and necessary for producing itself, then there will only be that one life, on repeat. There would be no previous life to differentiate it from, and there would be no next life in which to have a different set of karma.

[IcyCosmic]

I am almost sure that this isn't quite possible, Zarry. Even if it was because it is beyond us humans current comprehension, surely god will bring forth some 'divine intervention' or their shall be some fitting 'Leela' in order to bring nature back on its correct course and allow the cogs to move freely as if they were before. I understand what you're saying though, that since they recreate in exactly the same manner, that is the course of nature and god has no means to interfere with the laws of the universe, therefore leaving the individual in eternal reccurence.
Difficult to answer...I guess we shall never know

[Equinox]

Zarry, I dont think any of us in this forum would have the ability to remember who we were in our past lives, let alone what we did then. So you wouldn't get a definite answer.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Say you were reincarnated as someone else. You would never know that you had been the you that you are right now.

This question is -----> who is the real you that goes from body to body ?

If we look to the the praśna upaniṣad (2.7) it give us the insight of who comes and goes:
O, prāṇa as prajāpati you move within the wombs; you yourself are born repeatedly.These creatures in each of whom you dwell along with prāṇa-s brings offerings to you.

Note in this verse in the praśna upaniṣad, prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman. Now the point I relish is prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman = 'I'. Pure I = pure consciousness = cetana.

So as we go from body to body, who is coming and going ? For those reading this and ask, yajvan, you say isn't prāṇa life-breath, life energy. I say yes, yet in the upaniṣads and confirmed in the brahma-sūtra-s prāṇa has a ~ higher value ~ of brahman.

This insight is also supported in the bhāgavad gītā .


praṇām

[wundermonk]

But if the "first birth" produces the set of experiences and types of karma sufficient and necessary for producing itself, then there will only be that one life, on repeat. There would be no previous life to differentiate it from, and there would be no next life in which to have a different set of karma.

There are two forms of non-existence in Hindu philosophy.

One is the non-existence such as a barren woman's son. Since this is never experienced, but a birth is experienced, this non-existence is not the correct analogy when referring to a birth.

The second form of non-existence is the non-existence of a pot when the potter has not started working on it. Thus anything that comes into being is from pre-existing material/actions/qualities. So, anything that "begins to exist", for instance a pot, exists because it has been made out of pre-existing material/actions/qualities like clay.

If there is a third form of non-existence that precedes an existence, the mechanism should be spelt out and defined so that it can be examined under logical scrutiny.

Thus, as things stand now, there is no "first birth" for the self. There would ALWAYS be a previous life to differentiate it, and there would ALWAYS be a next life in which to have a different set of karma. There really is nothing illogical about an infinite regress of beginningless Karma.

[ZarryT]

Zarry, I dont think any of us in this forum would have the ability to remember who we were in our past lives, let alone what we did then. So you wouldn't get a definite answer.

Which in a sense also means that it doesn't matter - so we might as well live the same life again, rather than a new one, thus keeping all the same loved-ones and loved events...

[Aum namah Śivāya]

Namaste,

Even if this happened, it is the freely-chosen thoughts, words and actions that create karma. So in two different lifetimes, the same situation might have you responding in a different way due to your free will. Even one slightly different response would be enough to change the karma just enough to change the set of experiences you have.

For instance, let's say you are insulted by a friend. One person might take offense and use physical violence against the friend. One person will feel hurt and say some angry words to the friend. Yet another person wouldn't say anything but would have angry thoughts for a while afterwards. Finally, another person would not take offense at all.

Each of these responses would result in very different karma, or no karma at all. Since your reactions are not 100% directed by your karma, you would likely make a different decision somewhere along the way, and so break out of the cycle.

OM

[Aum namah Śivāya]

Which in a sense also means that it doesn't matter - so we might as well live the same life again, rather than a new one, thus keeping all the same loved-ones and loved events...

Namaste,

That's not really your conscious decision, though. Even if you lived the same lifetime, as others have pointed out, not all of your loved ones and friends would also be stuck in this cycle along with you. So you would encounter different souls, anyway, or some of the same souls in very different circumstances.

OM

[Kismet]

Is it plausible that someone's karma could be proportioned such that the only life they can live once they die is the same life again and so each and every time they die for all eternity they are reborn as themselves at the same time and date to the same parents?

If so, then everyone within their karmic sphere (parents, acquaintances, people on the street, even animals and insects) would have to recur along with them. But since this seems unlikely we could only posit that there are an infinite number of dopplegangers in an infinite number of universes whose karmas somehow manage to synchronize in just the right way. Sounds like a stretch unless like me you're into talk of possible worlds. :P

..Or perhaps everyone you meet is a simulacrum, who knows?

[ZarryT]

Let's try a slightly different thought experiment then.

Could there be a set of typical experiences, which, while not generating identical events, still guarantee the recurrence of a theme?

So in the way that James Cameron's Avatar, Pochahontas and Dances With Wolves all tell roughly the same story, but with different character names / places and so on, could reincarnation work for each individual in the same way?
Such that, whilst not living the same experiences twice, the story works in the same way?

In the same way the cycles of the universe have the same theme each time - there is always a kali yuga, for example.

What do you think?