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Thread: Chakra systems

  1. #21
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    Re: Chakra systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam Indiaspirituality: I think you may have misunderstood. The icing on the cake is experience. Right now I am at 99.999 % belief. Either that or you are saying you have seen the chakras in their resplendent many-petalled glories within the spine via the ajna chakra, or some other.

    The scriptures are a guide, the teacher is a guide. Nobody does the realisation for you. If that were the case, libraries wouldn't be libraries, they'd be temples.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Vannakkam Eastern Mind,

    +1

    I agree with you.

    What I mean to say is that the first step is to believe and have faith. Even though you have complete faith in shastras and your Guru, and you strongly believe in shakras or any thing in general, still as time, passes doubts creep from backdoor. Only realization or direct experience can uproot the doubt completely.

    Again when you experience, it is not in your hands. It's in the hands of God to make you experience, directly or indirectly through an external Guru in Meditation or sometimes with open eyes when you are not meditating. Some things are not in control of ourselves. Spiritual progress and experiences during meditation are one of them. You get experiences according to your prakruti (mindset). Not everyone feels or experiences chakras, but that does not mean they are by any means inferior or not advanced.

    Afterall, everything, includng chakra, comes under Maya and one has to go beyond Maya.

    But if you do not have faith in yourself, shastras, Guru and God, then you will not be able to experience this.

    You have to take first step. If you look at shadow and then you should not complain that I cannot see the sun.

    There may be many experiences. But if they are in tune with those mentioned in shastras, then it confirms that you are not right track. When you suddenly experience brilliant white light or experience a vibration of heart chakra or pressure on your top of head, sahastra chakra, then you know that this is the feeling of chakra. Here the knowledge of shastras help us.

    If am on advaita path. So when I got such experience, I know it is chakra or a subtle body. So I calm down and do not try to explore it, as advaita do not give importance to these experiences. You have to neglect them, be aware of AUM / OM and find the source, or ask 'Who am I' if I am not chakra, then neglect it and find the source.

    But if I do not know that such and such thing exists, then I may think that since this has happened in meditation, it is the grace of God and I should explore it and worse, I think hope that this experience should be repeated.

    I have passed from this states, so I can tell you that Shastras are pointers, but are very important. So is Guru. He is necessary, though you will have to meditate for your own salvation. There is also something called as Grace. Grace of Guru and God. I have also experienced this.

    Not all days are same. Meditation is not same on all days. So when I am stuck up sometimes, before I feel that I cannot come out of it instead of repeated attempts, immediately, in a second or two, my mind is cleared adn I can effortlessly meditate on mantra, which a moment ago, I found it extremely difficult to keep away the thoughts. Suddenly, where did thoughts dissappear.

    I hope you are getting my point.

    I understand and completely agree with what you say

    The thing is not many people meditate - seriously, sincerely and regularly.

    Aum

    IS
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  2. #22
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    Re: Chakra systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    Organs of consciousness are the jnanendriyas, manas, chitta [omitted some times], aham and buddhi. Chakras may be centers or locations in the subtle bodies from where our internal organs of consciousness function at various points, encountered during a samhara process.

    But I doubt chakras are really colourful lotuses, vajrayana description is quite different.

    In reality, I believe, the chakra systems in vogue are mnemonic devices to re-start a journey back to source. Mnemonic devices [and not just chakras but most things concerning adhyatma] cannot be taken as literal truths and without the guide of a true inner and outer guru it is hard to put these devices to actual use except for fantasizing - which we see is often the case. Actual chakra unfolding can possibly be different for different individuals.
    Well, semantically speaking, those are the organs per se, but you can't dissociate the postulation of chakras (centers of consciousness) from organs of consciousness/actions/karma.

    But the term organs of consciousness makes more sense to me, because the chakras are more related to levels of consciousness and how consciousness relates to one's body in a physiological, psychological way.

    The thing about being a literal truth or not is kind of a mind game.

    One may say that a thing only exists in subjective sense, but saying that to devalue it makes no sense, since subjectivity is an objective part of existence.

    Complex realm of existence we're located at...

  3. #23
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    Re: Chakra systems

    Namaste

    May I suggest that you are both essentially right.

    The bhutas/tanmatras/etc are correlated to the first 5 major chakras.

    Moreover, chakras represent gateways to senses beyond the 5 grossly physical ones.

    Namaste

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    Re: Chakra systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    The thing about being a literal truth or not is kind of a mind game.
    It is not about mind games but attaching false objective certitudes to things which are essentially just indications causes lot of confusion - a syndrome from which Hindus particularly suffer from. We speculate about "ultimate" with such brazen confidence as if it was set on stone. Subjectivity basically means the truth is beyond objective characterization in our consciousness. It does not mean subjectivity is itself the nature of truth. Rather it is just the error of measuring device [subject] by which we are left to communicate the deeper aspects of consciousness. Buddhists for example are much more clear about this and the fallacy of deterministic certitude concerning what ultimate reality is.

  5. #25
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    Re: Chakra systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuddhasattva View Post

    Moreover, chakras represent gateways to senses beyond the 5 grossly physical ones.

    Namaste
    ?? ... what super senses are you talking about? On contrary it is by the group of 5 by which we can cognize anything. Problem is not with senses or sense organs or their number, but how we cognize the sensual experience. So when Malas are gone the yogi doesn't end up with 7,9 or 13 sense's over the existing 5 - but rather, what he/she cognizes through 5 is "complete" in some sense, than it was in "ordinary" experience. Pancikaran or making it five is the essential part of a ritual which symbolizes and reinforces this very fact where the arghya nectar is relished through the 5 senses [displaying of 5 mudras].

    Since you also follow buddhism, this aspect is again made explicitly clear in buddhism where in the heart sutra [prajnaparamitahrdaya sutra] as it triumphantly declares that not only that form is emptiness - but emptiness is form.
    Oh, Sariputra, Form Does not Differ From the Void,
    And the Void Does Not Differ From Form.
    Form is Void and Void is Form.


    Further clarified in the mulamadhyamaka karika that experience of nirvana is not different from experience of samsara.
    There is no difference at all between Samsara and Nirvana! There is no difference at all between Nirvana and Samsara!

    The spirit is no different in kaula tantrism. If one however reads excessively into the exaggerated synthetic system of trika - one can draw wrong conclusions. JMO. My opinions are not set on stone also and continuously changing. But I do think Trika is guilty of idealizing a practical system [kaula], by synthesizing with shaiva siddhanta and other philosophies, aesthetics to build the ultimate philosophy. But till I can read the entire tantraloka - I cannot draw very solid conclusions as well, but that won't be any time soon.
    Last edited by Twilightdance; 05 July 2012 at 11:46 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Chakra systems

    it is by the group of 5 by which we can cognize anything.
    Namaste

    I do not believe this is supported by shastra save in the most abstract sense, insofar as the 5 base elements are also the microcosm which contain in their subtle form additional, non-material senses - to put it in Buddhist perspective, the 5 pure lights / Dhyani Buddhas.

    Only by these 5 can gross, 3 dimensional form be cognized by gross, embodied consciousness. However, perception of higher dimensional constructs, and the non-constructed, non-processual is inherently parasensory.

    As you have seen fit to quote the heart sutra, the astasahasrika prajnaparamita, which is likely the source text for all prajnaparamita sutras, mentions many mystical doors of perception.

    The different samadhis enumerated in Buddhism are different subtle senses.

    Namaste
    Last edited by Shuddhasattva; 05 July 2012 at 12:46 PM.

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    Re: Chakra systems

    samdhis or mental states or intermediate states are many - but it may not be [is not in my opinion] correct to label them as having anything to do with having additional sense organs. Would be glad if you could enumerate other senses than the group of 5s [in their gross & subtle forms] from shastras you mention. What else knowledge senses [or means of knowledge a.k.a surya mandala] apart from seeing, touching, tasting, smelling & hearing +mind & intellect is mentioned and where [not enumeration of samadhis which is an union of subject-object-means of knowledge and can be many many]? Thanks in advance.

  8. #28
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    Re: Chakra systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuddhasattva View Post
    The different samadhis enumerated in Buddhism are different subtle senses.

    Namaste
    This is quite possible though in buddhist terminology, I concur.

  9. #29
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    Re: Chakra systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    It is not about mind games but attaching false objective certitudes to things which are essentially just indications causes lot of confusion - a syndrome from which Hindus particularly suffer from. We speculate about "ultimate" with such brazen confidence as if it was set on stone. Subjectivity basically means the truth is beyond objective characterization in our consciousness. It does not mean subjectivity is itself the nature of truth. Rather it is just the error of measuring device [subject] by which we are left to communicate the deeper aspects of consciousness. Buddhists for example are much more clear about this and the fallacy of deterministic certitude concerning what ultimate reality is.
    I agree. Thank you.

  10. #30
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    Re: Chakra systems

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    I agree. Thank you.
    Now others also expressing same views.

    http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/...&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

    Dr. Valerie Hunt is easily one of the most charismatic speakers I have heard in a long time, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche being another. Unfortunately I haven't been able to keep up with the ever growing work of this dynamic young lady lately. Her exposition of a fractal model of consciousness is quite a delight to study. When we speak of Kundalini, Chakras etc., we seem to have very set notions on how they are, how they should be, what they transform into through spiritual practice etc. Considering the etheric or energetic structure of humans to be extremely complex, such handling of Kundalini and chakras seems to rigidly embrace a rather linear model quite inappropriately. Dr. Hunt argues effectively - though not in the context of Chakras or Kundalini - that the variables in this system are more than numerous and a rigid approach based on textbook symbolism is quite limiting. I was reminded of her today when I heard two of my students argue endlessly on whether Svadhishthana chakra is seat of fire or Manipuraka is. I probably confused them further, and intentionally, by bringing in the Chakra theory of the Guhyasamaja. Those hopelessly stuck at symbolism would benefit from Dr Hunt's work.
    However I am not sure of this Ms Hunt - cursory look at her reviews suggests she is more likely to be a new age quack doctor than an actual scientific researcher - having discovered mind is sometimes located out of the body in the human aura through 30 years of research on "human energy fields" [I am pretty sure there isin't any scientific claim like that, the semantics is more familiar with Maharshi Mahesh Yogi].
    Last edited by Twilightdance; 07 July 2012 at 08:52 AM. Reason: personal opinion on blogger removed.

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