Brahma - important or not?

[philosoraptor]

Namaste.

Pardon my ignorance but I have never heard of the Bhaagavata Puraana - is it part of the Mahabharata or a separate work?

That is very interesting about the time difference in Brahma's realm - it strikes me as being very similar to the theory of travel at the speed of life in that time doesn't appear to change much for the one travelling but on earth, time has appeared to move faster. But the consensus is that Brahma lives in a temporary and material plane in our sphere of existence but very far away? I hope I have that right?

Thank you for the recommendation on the book, that's on my payday shipping list! :-D

Pranams,

The Bhaagavata Puraana is not part of the Mahaabhaarata. It belongs to a slightly different genre of Hindu literature known generically as the Puraanas. The Puraanas contain historical narrations pertaining to God (Brahman), devas, kings, dynasties, creation, etc which are said to illustrate the principles discussed in the Vedas. I have seen two etymological derivations of the word "purAna" - one indicating that they "complete" the Veda and the other indicating their historical character. Needless to say, they are only regarded as historical to traditional Hindus. Outsiders consider them mythological.

The Bhaagavata Puraana is one of the most popular Puraanas as it is the main source for the details of the life of Sri Krishna as well as the other major avataars of Vishnu. It is also known as "the Bhaagavatam" or "Shriimad Bhaagavatam." There are 18 major puraanas divided into three classes based on their intended audience - sAttvik (goodness), rAjAsic (passion), tamAsic (darkness). Regardless of the class to which it belongs, the authority of the puraana is conditional on not contradicting the shruti (meaning, the Vedas). That being said, many commentators consider the sAttvik purAnas as being most in accord with shruti, and the Bhaagavata Puraana and the Vishnu Puraana are given the highest esteem in Vaishnava Vedaanta traditions. The subject matter of both is the same, but the Vishnu Puraana is more condensed and feels more philosophical, while the Bhaagavatam feels more emotional. Both are an excellent read, and they contain stories which intersect with those of the Mahaabhaarata. By the way, you should know that the Mahaabhaarata and the Raamaayana are also considered "sAttvik" in character by many Vedaantins, so if you like them, then you will feel right at home reading the Bhaagavatam.

Hope this helps,

[mradam83]

Pranams,

The Bhaagavata Puraana is not part of the Mahaabhaarata. It belongs to a slightly different genre of Hindu literature known generically as the Puraanas. The Puraanas contain historical narrations pertaining to God (Brahman), devas, kings, dynasties, creation, etc which are said to illustrate the principles discussed in the Vedas. I have seen two etymological derivations of the word "purAna" - one indicating that they "complete" the Veda and the other indicating their historical character. Needless to say, they are only regarded as historical to traditional Hindus. Outsiders consider them mythological.

The Bhaagavata Puraana is one of the most popular Puraanas as it is the main source for the details of the life of Sri Krishna as well as the other major avataars of Vishnu. It is also known as "the Bhaagavatam" or "Shriimad Bhaagavatam." There are 18 major puraanas divided into three classes based on their intended audience - sAttvik (goodness), rAjAsic (passion), tamAsic (darkness). Regardless of the class to which it belongs, the authority of the puraana is conditional on not contradicting the shruti (meaning, the Vedas). That being said, many commentators consider the sAttvik purAnas as being most in accord with shruti, and the Bhaagavata Puraana and the Vishnu Puraana are given the highest esteem in Vaishnava Vedaanta traditions. The subject matter of both is the same, but the Vishnu Puraana is more condensed and feels more philosophical, while the Bhaagavatam feels more emotional. Both are an excellent read, and they contain stories which intersect with those of the Mahaabhaarata. By the way, you should know that the Mahaabhaarata and the Raamaayana are also considered "sAttvik" in character by many Vedaantins, so if you like them, then you will feel right at home reading the Bhaagavatam.

Hope this helps,

Namaste,

Oh yes it does - thank you. I'm finding a lot of books that I never knew existed along with different scripture.

I have Upanishads, Gita, Mahabharata, and I sort of have Ramayana (It's not arrived yet) and along with Puraanas, is there any others you can recommend? I also am on the hunt for good translations of the Vedas too so once I have them then I have a good deal of scripture to digest and meditate on.

Thanks again.

[philosoraptor]

Namaste,

Oh yes it does - thank you. I'm finding a lot of books that I never knew existed along with different scripture.

I have Upanishads, Gita, Mahabharata, and I sort of have Ramayana (It's not arrived yet) and along with Puraanas, is there any others you can recommend? I also am on the hunt for good translations of the Vedas too so once I have them then I have a good deal of scripture to digest and meditate on.

Thanks again.

I'd recommend starting with the Itihaasas (Mahaabhaarata and Raamaayana) and Puraanas first. Regarding recommendations, bear in mind first that any translations reflects the underlying philosphical disposition/biases of the translator. Hence, I recommend reading only translations of practicing Hindus as much as possible, and recognize that there will be doctrinal differences that reflect in the different translations. Here are few recommendations I can make:

Bhaagavata Puraana:
Gita Press (www.gitapress.org) has a pretty good 2-volume edition with both the Sanskrit and English in an interlinear fashion. I suggest searching "Bhagavatam" from the search button to find it - you will want the one that says "English."
The ISKCON people have published their own edition which can be read online for free at www.vedabase.com. You can also get it in print at any of their temples or from their online store at www.krishna.com.

Mahabharata:
Parimal Publications (http://www.parimalpublication.com/Bookdesc.aspx?id=209) has a 9-volume unabridged edition with both Sanskrit and English in verse-by-verse format. This is a reprint of an earlier edition done by M.N. Dutt. I have both, but the original by Dutt does not contain the Sanskrit.

There is an abridged version written by C. Rajagopalachari and published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. It's a great read for a brief overview of the story and I found it emotionally stimulating as well. You might want to try some resellers like www.exoticindia.com and vedamsbooks.

Ramayana:
I recommend the 3-volume edition by Gita Press, hands down. I got mine from a reseller for $20 - well worth it for the unabridged edition with Sanskrit and English verse-by-verse translation. You can try their website. As always, if you happen to be in India, you can get these books quite cheap over there.

Vishnu Purana:
The one by Parimal Publications is the only English translation I know of. I suggest ignoring H.H. Wilson's footnotes as he is a dry academic whose opinions I have found to be of minimal use.

Eventually, you may wish to learn Sanskrit to delve more deeply into the epics. I can recommend two books but this is something that you should preferably do with a tutor.

Devavanipravesika: An Introduction to the Sanskrit Language (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/094...pf_rd_i=507846)

Teach Yourself Sanskrit (http://www.amazon.com/Yourself-Sansk...ef=pd_sim_b_14)

I like Devavanipravesika better as I find its explanations clearer, more geared to a casual student as opposed to a linguist, and the fact that it uses sentences from the Ramayana in its exercises. But, it does not have an answer key. Teach Yourself Sanskrit by Coulson has a samdhi rules table which makes those easy to learn, and it has an answer key, but its explanations are a bit more esoteric at times. For what it's worth, I would use them both, one to supplement the other.

Finally, at some point you will want to find a qualified guru. This is not something to be taken lightly, as there are many, how to put it delicately... not-so-qualified gurus out there. Hopefully, as you develop an improved fund of knowledge, you will be able to find someone who can answer your questions, remove your doubts, who preaches what is in scripture and practices it too.

regards,

[mradam83]

I'd recommend starting with the Itihaasas (Mahaabhaarata and Raamaayana) and Puraanas first. Regarding recommendations, bear in mind first that any translations reflects the underlying philosphical disposition/biases of the translator. Hence, I recommend reading only translations of practicing Hindus as much as possible, and recognize that there will be doctrinal differences that reflect in the different translations. Here are few recommendations I can make:

Bhaagavata Puraana:
Gita Press (www.gitapress.org) has a pretty good 2-volume edition with both the Sanskrit and English in an interlinear fashion. I suggest searching "Bhagavatam" from the search button to find it - you will want the one that says "English."
The ISKCON people have published their own edition which can be read online for free at www.vedabase.com. You can also get it in print at any of their temples or from their online store at www.krishna.com.

Mahabharata:
Parimal Publications (http://www.parimalpublication.com/Bookdesc.aspx?id=209) has a 9-volume unabridged edition with both Sanskrit and English in verse-by-verse format. This is a reprint of an earlier edition done by M.N. Dutt. I have both, but the original by Dutt does not contain the Sanskrit.

There is an abridged version written by C. Rajagopalachari and published by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. It's a great read for a brief overview of the story and I found it emotionally stimulating as well. You might want to try some resellers like www.exoticindia.com and vedamsbooks.

Ramayana:
I recommend the 3-volume edition by Gita Press, hands down. I got mine from a reseller for $20 - well worth it for the unabridged edition with Sanskrit and English verse-by-verse translation. You can try their website. As always, if you happen to be in India, you can get these books quite cheap over there.

Vishnu Purana:
The one by Parimal Publications is the only English translation I know of. I suggest ignoring H.H. Wilson's footnotes as he is a dry academic whose opinions I have found to be of minimal use.

Eventually, you may wish to learn Sanskrit to delve more deeply into the epics. I can recommend two books but this is something that you should preferably due with a tutor.

Devavanipravesika: An Introduction to the Sanskrit Language (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/094...pf_rd_i=507846)

Teach Yourself Sanskrit (http://www.amazon.com/Yourself-Sansk...ef=pd_sim_b_14)

I like Devavanipravesika better as I find its explanations clearer, more geared to a casual student as opposed to a linguist, and the fact that it uses sentences from the Ramayana in its exercises. But, it does not have an answer key. Teach Yourself Sanskrit by Coulson has a samdhi rules table which makes those easy to learn, and it has an answer key, but its explanations are a bit more esoteric at times. For what it's worth, I would use them both, one to supplement the other.

Finally, at some point you will want to find a qualified guru. This is not something to be taken lightly, as there are many, how to put it delicately... not-so-qualified gurus out there. Hopefully, as you develop an improved fund of knowledge, you will be able to find someone who can answer your questions, remove your doubts, who preaches what is in scripture and practices it too.

regards,

Namaste,

As always thank you for the help/recommendations.

I believe the Gita Press Ramayana is the one I purchased - but, I had a mishap where they sent me the Gita instead and I was contemplating getting it sent back but I'm in two minds - it's a lot better than the penguin books one I have.

Is there any difference between the Baghavad Puraana by Gita Press and ISKCON? If it's just the translation then I may go for Gita Press's version as I liked the overall look and feel of the Gita by them.

Sanskrit is something I will definitely look at at a later stage - although in your opinion, is it something that could fit into a fairly bust life learning the language?

The Guru search is a bit harrowing I think, as I'm not sure if it's something that is easily searched. I live in the UK, so I may ask my extended family who are all Hindu and see what they say and if they have a Guru of choice.

[mradam83]

Oh, I've just found this link from an older post that has some info on Brahma.

Let me know what you think, I found it very relevant especially the lifespan of the universe and lengths of days and nights of Brahma.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2140

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

In my opinion, avoid books published by ISKCON - they have justifiably acquired a reputation for distorting the meaning of texts to support their doctrines.

Granted, this happens with virtually any translation or commentary, but in ISKCON's case, it is particularly virulent.

[shian]

You will gate your suitable style to express your spirituality according to your inclination.

This is why in Hindu have so many art , but dont be confused, just stay in your path you choose by yourself then keep to respect others.

About Brahma, off course there is many scirpture (even Buddhism) is said Brahma is demigods,
but...
we not doing a sins when we pray to Brahma
and when we said word Brahma we also can transform it to the Brahma who is manifestation of our Isthadevata (personal deity)
if you choose name and form of Vishnu , then when you need help from Brahma, or for simple is you enjoy the beautiful view, you can feel Oh Lord Vishnu, You are great creator of all !

isn't Brahma is creator ? why Vishnu ?

you not wrong,
so there is so many reason to answer this.
Like : Vishnu use Brahma's hand to work

whatever... that is no problem, and you not worship a false god
to make ourself enjoy and feel save with our own choice (of one God name and form) is no need to judge others name and forms is wrong.

Be grateful with whatever we have, no matter how fool we are,
Bhagavan always smile and bless us,
because all of this beautiful ways is made by Him for different beings.

this is Hindu,
the big universe adorned with many beautiful different light

not a one lonley and boring small shell.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

." There are 18 major puraanas divided into three classes based on their intended audience''





Off course no other sects except vaishnav accepts the classifications, also note, it is only mentioned in few Puranas that Vaishnava follow, that is no reason to reject it, but it would make much more sense if the author that is Vyasdev had mentioned the classification in the relevant Puranas, that would have been an obvious thing to do. It is highly possible that such passages are work of overzealous followers, in the absence of any mention in the srutis it can easily be ignored.


Some people contend that the Puranas are divided into three classes based on their intended audience. Here it is why I think this is nothing but a lie, an interpolation because when one considers who recited the puranas and who were the audience we can make an informed judgement.

The Shiva Purana was recited by Vedavyasa's disciple Romaharshana,
Romaharshana and The Other Sages in naimisharanya.

Like all the purana it starts with Mahatmaya, SaunakAdiRishi are inquiring from Sutdeva only a few passage from here it would give an idea why the Purana is being recited for whom and why.

Off course if we are ready to conclude that the sages in naimisharanya are Rajsik and Tamsik audience so be it, or else I am forced to conclude the obvious, that it is an interpolation.

Jai Shree Krishna

[philosoraptor]

Namaste,

As always thank you for the help/recommendations.

I believe the Gita Press Ramayana is the one I purchased - but, I had a mishap where they sent me the Gita instead and I was contemplating getting it sent back but I'm in two minds - it's a lot better than the penguin books one I have.

Pranams. I suggest keeping it. I have one too, and I like it as an easy, portable reference.

Is there any difference between the Baghavad Puraana by Gita Press and ISKCON? If it's just the translation then I may go for Gita Press's version as I liked the overall look and feel of the Gita by them.

Assuming you are referring to the translations, I have found the differences to be minimal. Most noticeably, the ISKCON translation will often insert "Hare Krishna Maha Mantra" as a translation for "mahA-mantra" and "Supreme Personality of Godhead" for "bhagavAn" and other related terms. Then again, I find "God" to be an abstract concept and also not entirely a fitting translation, but that's another issue. As far as the Sanskrit-mula is concerned, the editions for both are basically the same with only minor numbering differences. The ISKCON one will also have commentary while the Gita Press one does not. There is another translation published by Motilal Banarsidass which I have not read. Mostly because it's more of an academic's translation than a devotee's translation.

Sanskrit is something I will definitely look at at a later stage - although in your opinion, is it something that could fit into a fairly bust life learning the language?

It requires substantial investment of time and consistency at least in the beginning, but the rewards are worth it. :-)

regards,

[philosoraptor]

Namaste,

Pranam

." There are 18 major puraanas divided into three classes based on their intended audience''

Off course no other sects except vaishnav accepts the classifications,

The classification is explicitly mentioned in the Matsya Puraana and the Padma Puraana. Whether some sects accept it or not does not alter that basic fact.

also note, it is only mentioned in few Puranas that Vaishnava follow,

Not true. It is the Vishnu and the Bhaagavata which are held in highest esteem among Vaishnava traditions. Neither the Matsya nor the Padma Puraanas are significant in any Vaishnava tradition I have heard of.

that is no reason to reject it, but it would make much more sense if the author that is Vyasdev had mentioned the classification in the relevant Puranas, that would have been an obvious thing to do.

The above does not even make sense. Vyaasa is known by tradition to be the author of the Puraanas. QED he is the author of those statements within the puraanas which classify them unless you have good evidence to the contrary.

It is highly possible that such passages are work of overzealous followers, in the absence of any mention in the srutis it can easily be ignored.

This is nothing more than sectarian wrangling poorly disguised as Vedantic argument. By that logic, we should reject the Ramayanam, the Mahabharata, Krishna-Lila, and much more because they are also not mentioned in shruti.

What is relevant is that there is nothing about the three-fold classification of the purANa that is *contradicted* by shruti.

Some people contend that the Puranas are divided into three classes based on their intended audience. Here it is why I think this is nothing but a lie, an interpolation because when one considers who recited the puranas and who were the audience we can make an informed judgement.

The Shiva Purana was recited by Vedavyasa's disciple Romaharshana,
Romaharshana and The Other Sages in naimisharanya.

Like all the purana it starts with Mahatmaya, SaunakAdiRishi are inquiring from Sutdeva only a few passage from here it would give an idea why the Purana is being recited for whom and why.

Off course if we are ready to conclude that the sages in naimisharanya are Rajsik and Tamsik audience so be it, or else I am forced to conclude the obvious, that it is an interpolation.

Jai Shree Krishna

The sages aren't rAjAsik or tamAsik, but their questions elicited answers which are beneficial to those who are. Hence, the classification.

Another difference between rAjAsic/tamAsic-class purANas and sAttvik-class purANas lies in the questions which they answer. In the case of sAttvik purANas, the question starts off with something open-ended, i.e. "What is the purpose of life?" "What is the duty of one who is about to die?" "How does one get liberation?" These are open-ended and non-sectarian questions which allow the speaker to answer truthfully without sectarian restriction.

Whereas in rAjAsic/tamAsic purANas, the questions are often specific and sectarian, designed to elicit a specific answer. For example, "Tell me about the glories of Linga." "Tell me about Matsya." And so the sage answers according to those specific questions. The question is narrower in scope, designed to elicit answers within a specific range of subject matter.

Note in this regard that there is a misconception that Vaishnava puraanas are sAttvik. In actuality, neither the Matsya nor the Kuurma Puraanas are in the sAttvik class despite their Vaishnava identification. Meanwhile, the Padma Puraana is sAttvik even though it is not a "Vaishnava Puraana" (the padma refers to the lotus upon which Lord Brahmaa sits). Also, it isn't true that everything within a "sAttvik purANa" is ipso facto in accord with shruti. Even purANas in the sAttvik class are acceptable only to the extent that they are not contradicted by shruti.

As an aside, all of this started when I was answering a question from a newcomer to the forum. Ganesh Prasad's sectarian objections are well-known and have been argued ad nauseum by him elsewhere, and there is hardly any need to rehash them here. It would be nice if he did not go out of his way to pick a fight over these issues every time one brings up details from our scriptures which don't match his personal views.

regards,