It is true that the Law of Karma holds true for the present and the future. But If we start drawing links back into the past, where will it finish? How did Karma originate?
If it is true that karma was already in place before the universe was formed, how did it come into beginning when this universe was created.
Namaste
Rishabh
Mid Term Member
Yes.Originally Posted by rishabhverma
It never will - nor does it have to. Keep in mind that the past has already caused the present. For the present to be, it does not have to poll the infinite past.But If we start drawing links back into the past, where will it finish?
It always was. There was no time when Karma was non-existent.How did Karma originate?
I suspect there are many unstated premises here that can lead to erroneous conception of creation within Hinduism. In general, there are three types of "creation" in Hinduism.If it is true that karma was already in place before the universe was formed, how did it come into beginning when this universe was created.
(1)Nyaya Vaiseshika [NV] view - Arambhavada - this says that there is a new creation in each cycle of creation-preservation-dissolution. But the new does not mean creatio ex nihilo. Per NV, the ultimate material cause of the universe are the atoms. The atoms are beginningless. In each cycle of creation, they are rearranged to form a new universe. This is also called asatkaryavada.
(2)Samkhya view - Parinamavada - here, there is no new creation. Per Samkhya, the effect pre-exists in the cause. The difference between cause and effect is merely one of manifestation of the unmanifest. The analogy for this is that in creation, a light shines. This light helps manifest previously existing entities that were covered in darkness and hence unknown. This dawn of knowledge and light is "creation". This is also called satkaryavada.
(3)Advaita view - Vivartavada - both NV and Samkhya are realist schools (although there are idealistic interpretations of Samkhya). Per Vivartavada, creation is an appearance. Brahman is immutable, unchanging and pure consciousness. But how to account for the world of names and forms? The only rational way is to posit that the universe of names and forms are not transcendentally valid. This is why Advaita posits (at least) two levels of reality - Vyavahara and Paramartha.
Keep in mind that in all schools of Hindu philosophy, there was never a "first" creation. The universe/souls/God have an eternal past. Karma is beginningless.
गै
हरिः ओम्
Namaste rishabhverma,
An excellent question showing deep meditation. Some excellent thoughts from wondermonk,
I can not answer your question; however, I came across this image yesterday, maybe it will assist
you in your thought process.
Karma is reproduction, the Supreme delights in recreating himself; we can also delight in seeing
this.
praṇāma
mana
ॐ नमः शिवाय
Aum Namaḥ Śivāya
8i8
If Karma is beginning less, then a few questions arise - Is God also involved in Karma - Does God also have to pay for what he has done (In which case Karma governs God) or is the law created by God and he is completely devoid of it (In which case it becomes arbitrary) or is it a false dichotomy like the euthyphro dilemma?
The point I was trying to get at was - People criticise God for all sorts of things even though God hasn't done anything wrong. How would one explain this?
Thank you for those lovely images - it helped me see coherence in the universe.
Namaste
Om Namah Sivaya
Why would you consider karma arbitrary?
Is gravity arbitrary?
Would the world make sense without gravity?
would the world make sense without karma?
Mid Term Member
I have come to realize that many of these questions presuppose a philosophy of time. So, it will be useful to understand what philosophy of time we are operating under.
In all schools of Hindu thought time/change did not have a beginning. So, there is no temporal precedence of Karma over God or God over Karma. Karma, time, space, God, selves, atoms, etc. are all co-eval. So, there is no temporally "first" creation. If someone asks a Hindu how long the universe has been, the answer would be there was never a beginning to the universe. The universe always was. This is in the temporal sense.
However, God is the ultimate ontological support. That is, everything else, other than God is completely dependent on God/God's will. This is stated by Krishna in the BG (paraphrase): I am in everything but nothing is in me.
Ontological priority is not the same as temporal priority.
Every verb, in this case "created", presupposes the existence of time. So, the only way in which God can "create" (or for that matter do) something is if time already exists. The Hindu God does not engage in ex nihilo creation. God has been engaged in manifesting (a better word as compared to creation which gives the impression that it is ex nihilo) and in the process of manifestation he uses temporally prior Karma, atoms, space, time, etc. God has been engaged in this activity which is like a sport for him from time immemorial.or is the law created by God and he is completely devoid of it (In which case it becomes arbitrary) or is it a false dichotomy like the euthyphro dilemma?
Namaste to all members. My name is Deepak and I live in Canada, for years I am writing on spirituality with my own understanding and I consider that as pen of the possibility rather only possibility. I will tell all readers to validate all information before accepting it by heart.
"There was no concept of Karma' until Bhagwat Gita was given to mankind. Lord Krishna introduced Karma Yoga for Kaliyuga".
In everyone's humble feet.
Radhe Radhe
Deepak
New Member
Dear Friend...
Before we attempt to answer the meaningful questions you have put forward in your reply, lets first make an humble attempt to understand the terms "Karma" and "Dharma"....The terms Karma and Dharma are very delicate terms which must be understood very clearly in order to understand rest of the mystery....
Please note that the questions you have asked need a very detailed answer and hence the length of this post will be quite big...
Please find the details regarding "Karma" here...
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...35&postcount=5
Now Dharma, to put it in a very simple way, indicates a righteous protocol....lets not get into the details of what is righteous
and how it is defined...as that will be an even longer discussion....
Comming back to your questions....
"Is God also involved in Karma"...
The significance of this question so great that one who "really" understands it will attain Paramathma....
Sri Vaasudeva in Bhagavad Gita [4.9] says...
janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so Arjuna
[very rough translation...]
Anyone who has the knowledge of the divya tattva [the divine concept] of His janma [birth] and karma [actions],
shall attain Him after giving up the current body.....
"Does God also have to pay for what he has done (In which case Karma governs God) or is the law created by God and he is completely devoid of it (In which case it becomes arbitrary) or is it a false dichotomy like the euthyphro dilemma? "
Sri Purushottama says in Bhagavad Gita [4.14]...
na mam karmani limpanti
[very rough translation]..."Karmaani na limpanti maam" I am unaffected or uninfluenced by Karma
Paramathma or Parabramha is not bound by anything at all....the term "Bondage" or "Bandhana" and "liberation" or "Moksha"
simply cannot be applied to that Supreme Lord....as He is beyond them
If so, then why does He take a form now and then...why does He perform any action...
to which Sri Krishna very beautifully says in Bhagavad Gita [3.22]...
na me parthasti kartavyam
trisu lokesu kincana
nanavaptam avaptavyam
varta eva ca karmani
[very rough translation]...
na asti kartavyam me...the exists No duty for Me...
.trishu lokesha na kinchana avaptam avaptavyam ..in all the three spheres of planetary space, there is nothing I need to obtain...nor is there anything that is not-obtained by me....
varta eva cha karmani....but am still involved in performing action....
He who is everything and is in everything has actually no need to do anything.....
Sri Hrishikesha further says [3.23]...
yadi hy aham na varteyam
jatu karmany atandritah
mama vartmanuvartante
manushyah partha sarvasah
[very rough translation]...
yadi jaatu..If at all
aham na varteyam atandritah karmani....I do not indulge or engage in the performing the action, in an intelligent, careful mature manner,
hi manushyah anuvartante mama vartma sarvashah....then certainly mankind will follow me in all respects....
Sri Padmanaabhah adds further [3.24]....
utsideyur ime loka
na kuryam karma ced aham
sankarasya ca karta syam
upahanyam imah prajah
[very rough translation]....
chet aham na kuryaan karmam ....If I cease to perform the actions ...
ime loke utsideyur ...this world will be put into ruins...
cha aham karta sankarasya cha upahanyam imah prajah....and I will be the root cause for harmful population and thus would be the cause of destruction of all living beings....
So as Sri Vaasudeva very clearly explains here ....He performs the actions only because if He does not do it ..this entire creation becomes unstable....not because He is bound by it nor because He is interested in the result or fruits of the action...
He does not need anything....He is called "Karunaamayi" or the ocean of mercy only because He cares for each and every Jeeva that is trying to obtain His state....He is that ocean of mercy who comes here again and again only because He wants to give each and every Jeeva yet another opportunity to attain Him....
"The point I was trying to get at was - People criticise God for all sorts of things even though God hasn't done anything wrong. How would one explain this?"
Each and every individual needs to perform the action under "Dharma"...when actions are performed under "Dharma", one will never ever occur any sin.....
Sri Hari clearly says that everything in this Universe, from the lotus born Bramha to the minutest organism, is bound by duty....
[3.25]....
saktah karmany avidvamso
yatha kurvanti bharata
kuryad vidvams tathasaktas
cikirsur loka-sangraham
[very rough translation]
yatha avidvaamsah kurvanthi karmani sakthah...Just as the ignorant acts being attached to the action
vidvaan asaktaah kuryaat cikirsur loka-sangraham....the knowledgeable one performs the action for the welfare of world...
The most important term here is "sakthah"...being attached...its only when one is attached to any particular type of action, then starts the downfall...the terms like and dislike are the main enemies of the performer of action...when the Jeevatma, instead of performing the actions without attachment, starts to attach itself, it starts getting trapped into the dangerous net that is woven by the results....
and that is the point of time where the ignorant thinks the following...
in case anything good happens, they either, due to their ego, start praising themselves and build a castle out of pride...or they claim that they are "so called lucky"
in case anything goes wrong, then as you have mentioned they criticize Him.....happily forgetting the fact that its only the results of their actions and nothing else.....
New Member
This is a logically incorrect question.
Because ...
when we say "How did something happen", an answer is always something prior to that.
if i ask "when did karma start"... any answer has to mention an event thats prior to karma ... which means the event has already happened !!
so the question is logically wrong question.
Ok, I get the gist, but I still have a few questions. I understand that the Hindu God is not involved in ex nihilo creation and that Karma is beginnings. It was also pointed out that the Lord is unaffected by Karma. But that seems counter intuitive. The Lord 'remodelled' matter to make it into the universe we currently witness. He performed 'action' for which he should get the fruit too. He has to come on Earth and slay demons. (Could this not be an indication that he is caught up in Karma?)
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