How did karma start?

[silence_speaks]

Dear rishabhverma,


Yesterday I had a dream. In that dream had some laws. Do the laws apply to me ?

[Adhvagat]

The One breathed without breath by its own impulse.
Other than that was nothing at all.
Darkness was there, all wrapped around by darkness,
and all was Water indiscriminate, Then
that which was hidden by Void, that One, emerging,
stirring, through power of Ardor, came to be.
In the beginning Love arose,
which was primal germ cell of mind.

How karma started...

[rishabhverma]

Dear silence_speaks,
It depends on the nature of the law you witnessed in your dream. If you saw in your dream that you are being pulled by gravity, then of course it applies to you.

[silence_speaks]

Dear rishabhverma,
How ? Is the "Dream law of Gravity" applicable to "me" or the "waking law of gravity" ? Its only the waking law of gravity.
Dream Law of Gravity is not applicable to me. its applicable to the dream entity.

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friend,

" It was also pointed out that the Lord is unaffected by Karma. But that seems counter intuitive. The Lord 'remodelled' matter to make it into the universe we currently witness. He performed 'action' for which he should get the fruit too. He has to come on Earth and slay demons. (Could this not be an indication that he is caught up in Karma?)"

Let us dig in a bit deeper and try to clearly understand the terms dharma and karma....

Karma can be defined using the following simple rules....
- the term action indicates execution of a set of possible sequential acts under the influence of an energy called "Time"
- without the term "Time", an action cannot be defined....
- every materialistic action will have an inevitable corresponding result in the form of materialistic reaction..
- some reactions are immediate and some have a longer latency due to the various factors present in the universe...
- any Jeeva which has performed any action is bound by time and hence it cannot escape the result as long as it is bound by time...

From above mentioned points, one thing which is very clear is that the Jeeva which has performed an action, is definitely bound by time, has performed an action under the influence of time and hence the Jeeva , involuntarily, without any choice, without any control, is forced into another time slot where in it experiences the results of its actions....

for example..if a Jeeva is in a human body and performs a lot of wrong actions, all through the lifetime in the human body, this Jeeva will be forced to take up another birth in a lower species, in a lower planetary system and experience the results of its actions....here the point to be noted is that this Jeeva is always bound by time and actually has no control over time...and hence is indirectly bound by Karma as Karma is defined using time...

now lets come to Paramathma....as Sri Krishna has beautifully told in Bhagavad Gita....

4.7
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham

Whenever[in the passage of time] and wherever[in the passage of space] there is a decline in dharma
[due to Jeevas performing karma against dharma] and there is a predominance of adharma that is prevailing...
In all those places in all those times, I, srijaami...manifest aatmaani..My Self....

4.8
paritranaya sadhunam
vinasaya ca duskritam
dharma-samsthapanarthaya
sambhavami yuge yuge

In order to protect the righteous and destroy the unrighteous, in order to establish righteousness
I enter into this Universe in every Yuga....

Now, please carefully note the most important points here....
- Paramathma never enters this Universe because He is bound by Karma
- Paramathma is not bound by Karma because Karma is defined using Time and Paramathma Himself is Kaala or He is Time personified..
- Paramathma hence is not bound by Time instead He is Time "Bhagavad Gita 11.32 kalo ’smi "
- As Paramathma is Time He is neither bound by Karma, nor its phala[results] and nor by anything else...
- Everything in this Universe is actually bound by Him....

So....Sri Vaasudeva says here that whenever and wherever the righteousness needs to be protected, He will manifest Himself...
where as a Jeeva is bound by Karma as its bound by Timne and hence the birth and death and the karma phala and karma always bind the Jeeva forcefully...

For Parmathma..He is Dharma..He is Kaala...He is always there as Time...He manifests Himself in order to keep Dharma protected as He is Dharma personified....but never bound by karma...as He is that "Time" which defines the term Karma...

[rishabhverma]

Thank you very much. The last post makes perfect sense.

[kallol]

Dear Rishabhverma,

As the manifestation and unmanifestation of universe is perpetual and in cycles, there is no way to know the begining or the end. Just like we move from stahya yuga to kaliyuga and agian to sathya yuga, the karma frequency also has the same cycles in micro level and macro level.

It is eternal and cyclic. No one knows where a circle stsrts or ends. It is like that.

So to get stuck on something which is beginingless or endless, will distract one from the main focus - the knowledge of creation and life.

[rishabhverma]

After contemplating for a while, it makes sense how karma is beginningless and God is not affected by karma. But how is this logical?
For example take logic. God never created logic, logic (as we view it) is a reflection of how God thinks. God never created logic, nor was logic ever devoid of God.
In the Same way karma cannot exist independently of God and it has to be a part of him. What is the relation between karma and God?

[MarkMe]

After contemplating for a while, it makes sense how karma is beginningless and God is not affected by karma. But how is this logical?
For example take logic. God never created logic, logic (as we view it) is a reflection of how God thinks. God never created logic, nor was logic ever devoid of God.
In the Same way karma cannot exist independently of God and it has to be a part of him. What is the relation between karma and God?

God manifests over various yugas, into what? How does God manifest outside of himself, as if in one and not the other? Doesn't there have to be something else there - or some other form of existence, in order or God to manifest from one way into another? I think there has to be two things. I think one is God, and the other is existence.

So we will say we have two eternities on our hands. One is God and the other is made of the stuff of existence. Purusha and prakriti. The Purusha is the transcendent of the two. The purusha does not need the prakriti, and nether does the God in any of us. The purusha is the larger, and the prakriti is the smaller.

So we have two eternities. The lesser does not comprehend the ways of the greater of the two. The greater effects the lesser, even to the point of an interaction of the two that the lesser cannot comprehend.

I do not think God participates, exactly, in the ways of existence, but rather, has a transcendent effect upon it. Not the effect of a conscious act, but of a real effect.

In summary, that karma is part of eternal existence, but this is not necessary as a part of one's eternal God-self. They are each eternal. God is simply the larger of the two.

From the standpoint of God, there is only one, which intellect cannot conceive; the best a logical perspective can do is for one thing to look at another thing. God is not second to the root of all perspective - individuals are. God does not have logic - we do. And so, in relation to God we are asked to find a place of advaita, where it is not one thing upon another one thing, but simply one thing for both. For God, there is not one thing upon another - it is all reality. This will give us a life without a perspective upon it.

Existence, in motion, has its own God-quality and attention, by the pervasive reality of God. Existence rises and falls. Manifest God would simply know better.

Honestly, I don't see any way without the existence of existence. But existence itself would have no awareness without God. Awareness would not be a property of anything without itself.

That's what happens when I guess.
- Mark

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

I do not think God participates, exactly, in the ways of existence, but rather, has a transcendent effect upon it.

the bhāgavad gītā , chapter 9 , 8th śloka:

prakṛtim svām avastabhya
visrjami punaḥ punaḥ |
bhūta-grāmam imaṁ kṛtsnam
avaśaṁ prakṛter vaśāt ||

This says,
curving back (leaning, resting-upon or avaṣṭabhya) onto my SELF (svām) I create (visṛjāmi) again and again (punaḥ punaḥ).
All this (kṛtsnam) which exists ( manifestation and variety bhūta-grāmam) , that comes into creation (prakṛti) is done by my authority or command (vaśāt).

Another view ( not different) is from the isāvāsya upaniṣad

oṁ pūrṇamadaḥ pūrṇamidaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇamudacyate |
pūrṇasya pūrṇamādāya pūrṇamīvāvashiṣyate ||

That is whole; this is whole;
From that whole this whole came;
From that whole, this whole removed,
What remains is whole.

We need to be comfortable that the ~building blocks~ of the universe is wholeness itself.

So, what is this Supreme wishing to do ?

tasaivaiṣā parā devī
svarūpāmarṣantosukā |
pūrṅatvaṁ sarvabhāveṣu
yasya nālpaṁ na cādhikam ||

I will rely on svāmī lakṣman-jū for the proper translation of this śloka. This then says,

The collective state of the universe is His supreme energy (or śakti) which He created to recognize His own nature. This śakti who is the embodiment of the collective state of the universe loves possessing the state of God Consciousness. She is in the state of ignornance remaining perfectly complete (pūrṅatvaṁ) and full in each and every object.


We are left with the final insight -

when the infinite vibrates, the worlds appear to emerge - ṛṣi vaśiṣṭha


iti śivaṁ