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Thread: Avalokiteshvara

  1. #1
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    Avalokiteshvara

    Hello everyone,

    I wanted to make a tread about Avalokiteshvara. He have many names, and have even a female form (KuanYin, Kannon...) and a male form (Avalokiteshvara, Chenrezig...)



    Well, you would say that it's bouddhist, and that there is no discussion to have here about it.

    I discovered that Avalokiteshvara was in Sanatana Dharma before. His mantra is originally in sanskrit, and he even have 108 different forms and names ! The most powerful one is the thousand arms-thousand eyes Avalokiteshvara, other forms show him with vishnu, garuda (Hariharihari), others names like Devadevata, vishnupani, Harivahana...One of his form even picture him sitting on a tiger, like Durga Maa.

    I found the fact that he is very linked to Santana Dharma very interesting.

    Buddhist enbodies him like the ultimate compassionate being: attaining self realization, he refused to go to Nirvana unless humanity attain the same goal. For this, he was gifter thousand arms holding lotus to help everyone. His feminine forms show the mudra of protection, and is often depicted in white.

    His mantra is "Om Mani Padme Hum" in sanskrit (sorry, I can't write in sanskrit ^^")

    Avalokiteshvara is said to embodies love, kindness and compassion for all beings. But he also represent certain aspects in Dharma, and for some renounciation.

    So, what do you think about Avalokiteshvara ? Do you know about his Sanatana Dharma "form", before he was used in Buddhism ?
    Do you know about this mantra, and can you please enlighten me on his meaning please ?
    Is it okay to add him on a altar and worship him the same as other hindu deities ?


    Thank you

    Aum
    ~Aum Namah Shivaya~

  2. #2

    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    Namaste,

    I have heard of him, and of his compassion for people. He is a very interesting Buddha.

    Pranam

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    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    Namaste

    I practice in the karma kagyu buddhist tradition, which I consider completely compatible with the Sanatana Dharma.

    I am unaware of Avalokiteshvara's claimed origin in the Hindu tradition, although influence and association are certainly there. Are you sure of your information?

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    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    Hello Shuddasattva, and thank you for your answer

    You made me think and go to my sources again, and I realized on the wikipedia page that Avalokiteshvara first mention was in a Budhist scripture. I came across sites saying that Avalokiteshvara orignated from Santana Dharma, but I don't find them really convincing on second check.
    The ancient arts depicting Him on ancient Budhist temples in India, and the similarities with sacred 108 names and forms confused me.

    I am deeply sorry, I made a mistake. So, if an Admin could move this tread to the Buddhism section, so this section don't get confusing, I would be very glad. My apologies again

    Shuddhasattva, sorry to disturb you with my curiosity, but I would like to know what the karma kagyu tradition is ? Is it some kind of school in Budhism ? I never heard of it, I'm very interested to learn more !

    Aum~
    ~Aum Namah Shivaya~

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    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    Namaste

    Yes, karma kagyu is a school in Tibetan Buddhism.

    Padmasambhava first brought Buddhism into Tibet, founding the Nyingma (ancient) school. Some centuries later, Marpa the translator brought the kagyu lineage & teachings. His master was Naropa, an Indian pandit and acharya at Nalanda who was himself the disciple of Tilopa, the first earthly representative of the kagyu lineage. Around the same time another student of Naropa transmitted the teachings into Tibet, founding the sakya school/lineage.

    These are all triyana schools, with particular emphasis on the vajrayana.
    • Hinayana (theravada) is the path of individual liberation, and emphasizes personal discipline.
    • Mahayana is the path of universal enlightenment, in which the practitioner takes the bodhisattva vow to stay within samsara until all beings are enlightened.
    • Vajrayana is sub-branch of mahayana, with a focus on expedient means so that enlightenment can be achieved as quickly as possible, even in the present life (the stated goal), as and for the sake of all beings
    Within another few hundred years, the gelugpa school was founded as a reform movement inspired by the kadampa school (a mahayana, not triyana, school with emphasis on moral discipline), which it subsumed. So now in Tibetan Buddhism, there are 4 major schools - nyingma, kagyu, sakya and gelug.

    The karma kagyu subschool of the kagyu school is the lineage established by the first karmapa, a disciple of Gampopa, one of the two major disciples of Milarepa, who is regarded as a fully enlightened Buddha, and himself the disciple of Marpa the translator.

    The karmapa is seen in Tibetan Buddhism as a manifestation of Chenrezig, although I suppose I'm a heretical or, at least, heterodox Tibetan Buddhist as I regard Buddhism as dead or twitching, with all the lineages having effectively become bankrupt in the past generation, including the karma kagyu.

    You may be familiar with the "karmapa controversy." Two different camps in the karma kagyu are divided on politicized lines over who is the real 17th Karmapa - there are two claimants. Personally, I think neither of them are real tulkus, and that the lineage is counterfeit now, with the true tulkus having transmigrated out of Buddhism.

    The Buddha predicted a lifespan of 2500 for his dharma and its eventual corruption and counterfeit status. From Sanatana Dharma Buddhism emerged, to Sanatana Dharma its ashes now return as rich fertilizer. That is how I see it, anyway. Buddha dharma is impermanent, itself as a skillful teaching of the doctrine of impermanence.

    You might find this post relevant to your concerns:

    Out of this, emerged doctrines of Buddhism (vajrayana) that are free of most of the defects Hindus consider Buddha Dharma to have (atheism, no soul, emphasis on mayic and nirguna qualities to the exclusion of saguna brahman, etc.) These traditions worship deities with great devotion, as swarups of the adibuddha (saguna brahman) inseparable from the formless essential consciousness (nirguna brahman), both things and transcending this as well (parabrahman). The deity yogas of these esoteric traditions bear striking similarities. The internal yogas, absorptions, samadhis, transmission of energy and realization through shaktipat, etc., are all very similar and mutually present.

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...5&postcount=20

    Others here may disagree, decide for yourself.

    Namaste

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    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    Buddha dharma is impermanent, itself as a skillful teaching of the doctrine of impermanence.
    And customs we bucket under hinduism these days is quite permanent? Really?as a practitioner of buddha dharma? Buddhism is very interesting and worthwhile for a certain type of Hindu but for the vast majority I don't see how they can relate to or appreciate it.

    Out of this, emerged doctrines of Buddhism (vajrayana) that are free of most of the defects Hindus consider Buddha Dharma to have (atheism, no soul, emphasis on mayic and nirguna qualities to the exclusion of saguna brahman, etc.) These traditions worship deities with great devotion, as swarups of the adibuddha (saguna brahman) inseparable from the formless essential consciousness (nirguna brahman), both things and transcending this as well (parabrahman). The deity yogas of these esoteric traditions bear striking similarities. The internal yogas, absorptions, samadhis, transmission of energy and realization through shaktipat, etc., are all very similar and mutually present.
    You have made up convenient superimposition's to rationalize practice of two different things, but I believe it is not warranted. Just because Vajrayana has similar (or same) elements as Tantra-Yoga doesn't make it compatible with things like saguna, nirguna brahma, soul, theism and what not. Internet is full of good writings of many high lamas refuting this naive superimposition. Vajrayana still wants to be buddhism at the core and thus cause-effect and emptiness (which is not some self existing absolute state you have made it out to be - since that would squarely contradict what it is saying) are at its core. Vajrayana philosophy is infact most radical among buddhist and they strongly object to vijnanavada type philosophies which indicate that buddha states are existing, and don't consider many other well established buddhist schools to be not really buddhist

    But those with inclinations towards tantra cannot deny that vajrayana is very interesting and perhaps useful. Particularly the yogic aspect of tantra are only seen in Vajrayana and completion stage practices have the clearest instructions and documentation of what we would call Laya yoga. Hindu tantras are generally just bunch of rituals with very little direct insight into yoga or a goal. Kashmir Shaivism on the other hand is just some exaggerated philosophy with highly conceptualized notions with very little practicality. The yogini tantras are simply gone from hinduism and only exist in vajrayana.

    One can perhaps reconcile hinduism with vajrayana and buddhism, but not with concepts like souls, jiva, brahman etc...a somewhat bare -bones shaktism should be compatible with buddhist philosophy if not the morality. In the end one must remember Tantra is not really Hindu in the general sense. Its another stream of practice which arose in India and does not require main stream religion sign-off. Much of mainstream Hindu beliefs would be very contrary to actually developing oneself in this path (vs dabbling in some rituals with the same mind). That the kapalikas of the bygone age chose buddhism over traditional hinduism to preserve their yogini cult is because buddhism offers a more radical thought pattern and more condusive for breaking through illusions of existence.

    Simlarly dabbling with Vajrayana deities will not generate results of buddhism if the foundation of the path (which you seem to ignore) are misplaced. Vajrayana anuttara yoga leads to the subtle clear light of mind which by itself is not nirvana. Without understanding and meditation on emptyness clearlight will not yeild to the buddha mind. But clearlight is for everybody - and in that spirit we can perhaps use Vajrayana. But I still feel one should be clear and respectful of the differences to derive any benefit.

    PS: I am not a new poster. I threw only away the keys to my last account.
    Last edited by Twilightdance; 16 June 2012 at 01:32 PM.

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    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    PS: I am not a new poster. I threw only away the keys to my last account.
    Are you sm78?

    Perhaps or perhaves?

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    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Are you sm78?
    Perhaps

    I also want to add, that when I say "hindu tantras are just rituals with not much direct insight into yoga" etc., I am obviously exaggerating a bit. Same for KS. However, it should be obvious who have taken cursory look at both Hindu and Vajrayana tantric practices, that later is much much more organized into numerous lineages all going back a thousand year or more (claimed to be unbroken). Many lama's view that completion stage practice is unique to Vajrayana. Although this may not be true, our hatha & laya yoga has practically got separated from the ritual tantra, nor are they strict lineages (many gurus can't recount their own guru, or if they can the line does not go beyond more than 1-2 generations. A Himalayan immortal called Babaji then generally comes down from the mountains to grant the certificate of authenticity and power to the lineage).

    I think their are many reasons for this:-

    1. Many of the Yogini cults merged with Vajrayana early on (as I have said, I think Buddhism is indeed more radical to break the illusion of existence and could be more attractive for people without strong beliefs, in spite of the huge gap in morality and lifestyle. To understand non-dualism one needs to understand Buddhism first. Much of the non-dualism in Hindu philosophy seems artificially constructed from the dualistic views. Doesn't mean non-dual experience of siddhas or vision of tantra is incorrect, but the correct vision has never been communicated properly or is not very important for practice.).

    2. Vajrayana/Mantrayana transported to tibet did not face the annihilation of the Islamic sword.

    3. Inside Hinduism we have so many different schools of thought for a system to adapt to that many of its own essence is lost or terribly distorted. One has to adopt to vedanta to gain the certificate of "hinduness". One has to adopt to a personal God to gain the certificate of "hinduness" etc etc. Most tantra yoga in Hinduism being householder traditions makes it more difficult to preserve or prevent distortions.

    #3 is more serious problem than it might appear to be.
    Last edited by Twilightdance; 17 June 2012 at 12:05 AM.

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    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    To understand non-dualism one needs to understand Buddhism first. Much of the non-dualism in Hindu philosophy seems artificially constructed from the dualistic views.

    Looks like we should toss all theUpanishads into hindu ocean and forget about Brahman and pray to Siddhrtha Gautama instead !!
    A watered down version of hinduism may not enthrall us, that too with its deletions of large chunks of hindu philosophy. Not sure why would one who already took pains to unerstand his/her own vast faith go down that path. A faith that kept away from dealing with creation and cosmos offers only a truncated version of hinduism nothing more, adopting hindu doctrines (karma, rebirth, nirvana) more less as is. Budha,during his lifetime, had emphasized on Dukha (sorrow) and preached a way around it, now if we consider hindu yamas and niyamas already well reserached before his time, dukha would not enter oneslife, would it. Whereas Advaita vedanta system considers consciousness 'as the very nature of of the soul, knowledge being only a manifestation of or reflection of consciousness on the vritti or modifications of the mind', Buddhism on the other hand reduces it (consciousness) to a mere ' series of momentary cognitions, each revealing itself'. IMHO other Dharmic faiths have very little to offer to hindus.That way abrahamic faiths seem more alien in the comparative religion realm. That said, a hindu can always explore anyother faith in order to be able to appreciate whats unique abou this/her own faith. Namaste.
    Last edited by charitra; 17 June 2012 at 10:56 AM.

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    Re: Avalokiteshvara

    1. Many of the Yogini cults merged with Vajrayana early on (as I have said, I think Buddhism is indeed more radical to break the illusion of existence and could be more attractive for people without strong beliefs, in spite of the huge gap in morality and lifestyle. To understand non-dualism one needs to understand Buddhism first. Much of the non-dualism in Hindu philosophy seems artificially constructed from the dualistic views. Doesn't mean non-dual experience of siddhas or vision of tantra is incorrect, but the correct vision has never been communicated properly or is not very important for practice.).
    Namaste,

    Thank you for sharing your views. I cannot agree that the non-duality taught in Hindu philosophy is constructed from a dualistic point of view. Perhaps you should look into some of Ramana Maharshi's Satsangs or Mooji. Advaita is which with 'pure' non-dualism. Non duality does not mean a rejection of duality. It encompasses dualism and non-dualism. It is the Absolute Reality. It cannot be separated from what is. With that said I do not think that great Advaitic teachers speak from dualism unless it is something that is useful. When you get deep into Advaita you start to see that even Presence is witnessed. What is it that witnesses even the presence? No words are applicable. This is when you get into the very heart of emptiness. An emptiness that transcends emptiness and fullness.

    My views only

    Om Namah Shivaya

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