German court rules circumcision is bodily harm

[McKitty]

Hello,

Please...Some Hindu asked westerners not to intervene vehemently on the treads talking about Bharat politicals/religious/cultural issues. I cannot argue you are totally wrong on a cultural tread about Bharat, because I am no expert, and as Hindu you know more about it.

I will still have my personnal opinion and express it, but I will certainly not try to prove you absolutely wrong because, being Hindu, you are daily facing this cultural particularity, know how your family/friends/people around you behave with this cultural particularity.

Please, consider too that concerning a part of nowadays western culture, the culture I'm born in and live in, I certainly know what I am talking about. And if I am no expert in Bharat, you are not expert of France, or Germany.

Yes, it is also and mainly for non religious people because of hygiene issues. Some men find that useful because when they pee, there is no piss that touch the skin or stay between the skin and the penis. Other mens have problems because their skin is too thigh, or not enough long, and they suffer daily because of the clothes and when they erect. That's another reason why some men prefers to do this.

I am not making that up, this is true, and it's pretty common for mens in my country, and in some european countries, to do that for these reasons, regardless of religious reasons.

This is a part of my culture, my country did not react to it because it's a common thing and not considered barbaric when men choose to do it, that's all.

Doing this to a little child without his consent is not good, I agree. But if a man choose to do it, religious reasons or not, I don't see any problems.

I know there's no fight attended but I'm surprised by the answers of some Hindus. I mean, it's certainly choking in your country or culture, I can understand. But you are no expert in my country, nor in my culture, so why saying "you're lying" so vehemently ? I wouldn't take any time to made something up for a so stupid subject.

Go to any french forum talking about the subject, it will comfirm what I'm saying. I respect the personal opinion of everyone, but remember that if I'm not proclaming myself knowing Bharat better than a Hindu, you don't have to proclaim yourself knowing better France than me.

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

This is not a cultural issue. This is a scientific issue. There is no hygienic reason for circumcision. There might have been in the era of mass-scale warfare, especially trench warfare, or with desert nomads, but these reasons are past.

Moreover, the small, small, small number of men who might rationally choose circumcision for the reasons you mentioned are just that - a small number, compared to the overwhelming majority of baby boys who are circumcised either because of religion, or because of how religion has influenced the medical establishment.

I do not agree with the mentioned poster's request, because I consider external, critical perspectives to contain in their objectivity, however mistaken due to a lack of external or internal information, a vital role in humanism - which I consider to be the rational, filtered incorporation of critical views by a society.

Therefore, I find no qualms whatsoever in speaking about what you consider to be a "French/German" (presumably because that's what your exposure is?) cultural issue. It's an issue across the Western world, and the Middle East, and anywhere else where this barbaric practice is still upheld on spurious grounds.

Namaste

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

Also, I want to say something that should be obvious, but somehow due to the confusion of the modern discourse, isn't.

Babies, even newborns, have memory. It's not a recording, episodic memory as we think of in a more adult sense, it's memory which consists of impressions; they do not remember incidents, but the impression is made, the mark is left. It influences the developmental process and the future outcome of the mind.

Circumcision is traumatic mutilation. They may not remember, but the impression is made, and it is one I think that anyone who considers this fairly will see as deeply negative.

Controlling for other factors, I am willing to bet heavily that circumcised people (at least, those circumcised without their consent/will), are on the whole more violent and emotionally confused than uncircumcised people.

[Believer]

Om Shanti Shanti Om

If this is a German national issue, then why did ONLY the muslim/jewish groups object to it?
Why did the general population of Germany not object?
It is purely a religious issue for muslims, whether we agree or not.
We are not really talking about Germany here, but only about the muslims in Germany.
But, so far as I am concerned, have other limbs amputated too while one is there with the doctor.
Maybe have the rear hole plugged too, for hygiene.
McKitty, you are confusing Hindus talking about muslim practices, to our talking about the German (or French) people. That is not the issue here.

Om Shanti Shanti Om
-

[philosoraptor]

I feel bad for the children. The government is naive if they think that banning this practice is going to stop it. What will happen instead is that people will get it done, but underground and by practitioners of questionable ability. Expect higher rates of wound infection, genital injury, etc...

Not that I particularly care for the practice either... just sayin is all.

[McKitty]

Hello,

I understand you opinions, however, I still believe that it's the choice of a man, not our. It's not entirely good, but it's no entirely bad. It's everyone's opinion, a man want to do it for allah? It's his choice, not mine. Another man think it's more hygienic ? Well, let him be, I have no reason to object.

Again, I am totally against doing this to newborns, it's clear. No baby have the hability to make choices, and they are more subject to pain and memory.

But if a man, responsible of his choices, want to do this for a reason or another, well, the pain duration is 7 days. After, he have no problem.

I ate a apple tonight. It's my choice. Because I think it's healty. If one day a guy of green peace make a law to forbid me to eat apples, telling me it's not good for health because full of industrial products, I will say to him "why do you care ? It's my choice, I have my reason, I want to eat apple, deal with it! "

When it's the choice of a man, responsible of his actions, I don't see any problem. It's absolutely none of my concern.

When it's done on a newborn without it's concern, yes, I do not agree with that.

What is EVEN more barbaric it's this practice on woman. For a man, cutting this piece of skin bring some pain, the pain soon dissapear, and the man can live his life without caring.
Men forcefully cut women's clitoris to make them suffer, to cut those woman from any pleasure. Plus, it's very unhealthy, and painful for ALL life.

THIS is the standart of "barbaric" for me. A woman get a lifetime of suffering and have no choice, nobody care. A man have the choice to cut his little piece of skin, he can justify all he want for doing this, it's only a choice depending on a individual, and everybody make big noise for it !

Again, I am talking about mens or boys wanting to do this for their own reasons, and this is a common thing here. I am, like you and since the beginning, against this practice on babies.

Aum

[Shuddhasattva]

Why are you talking about men and choices when this is far more about little boys without choices?

[Shuddhasattva]

I feel bad for the children. The government is naive if they think that banning this practice is going to stop it. What will happen instead is that people will get it done, but underground and by practitioners of questionable ability. Expect higher rates of wound infection, genital injury, etc...

Not that I particularly care for the practice either... just sayin is all.

This is a mixed bag. It's not necessarily true that banning a practice will further inflame it, although I could see this as a definite possibility. No doubt, many will still have the procedure done, with the accompanying risks mentioned by you.

However, the illegality (and hopefully, penalty) for this, and the risks and consequences themselves (son gets infection, have to take him to doctor, now getting deported...) may be a catalyst for a slowdown to Islamic immigration and population growth, and maybe even a trend in the other direction.

Islam is going to choke Europe within a few generations if this continues. McKitty, I know you meet Muslims who are nice, well-mannered and maybe even well-intentioned (something I ascribe to few people, Muslim or otherwise), the core of Islam that Muslims carry with them wherever they go, like an ark of the covenant, is never satisfied living in the House of Safety, but must turn everything into the House of Islam.

[McKitty]

Islam is going to choke Europe within a few generations if this continues. McKitty, I know you meet Muslims who are nice, well-mannered and maybe even well-intentioned (something I ascribe to few people, Muslim or otherwise), the core of Islam that Muslims carry with them wherever they go is never satisfied living in the House of Safety, but must turn everything into the House of Islam.

Hello,

Yes Shuddhasattva I agree with you, and I know that. It's true that I know and accept that some muslims are good people and only want to live their faith the way they want without harming people. But I acknowledge they are not all like this...
Like you said, it's a mixed bag.
And I have no authority, no power to judge people. And I think, and politics aknowledge that too, that this is a very tough problem. Judging a religion that wide and that diversified is a real hard thing, because there are innocent people inside that can be targeted, and nobody want that.
Anyway...This is not my job, and I am not a soldier, so...What can be done.

In Europe, extreme politicians are slowly taking power. A Nazi political party was nearly taking power in greece. In Suiss, chocking advertisements were made everywhere, even in cinemas, showing that arabs are bad, they should die or being banned of the country, that white people were here first and are good...

Unfortunately, due to mixed opinions about the subject, it politically end up in such dangerous though...And that's not a solution, as they encourage extreme islam to hate them, they also encourage non extreme muslim to hate them.

And it goes in circle, and it will end bad.

Aum

[Shuddhasattva]

"What can be done..."

For starters, constitutional amendments that the country will never acknowledge any religion's religious laws, and internally administered courts, insofar as they conflict with or pretend to supercede secular laws.