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Thread: A purpose of an illusion

  1. #1

    A purpose of an illusion

    I can make mistakes. Tell me if I do it. But I have some questions and I can't understand some things. Maybe you'll be able to help me.
    Who believes in God believes he is wise. What's a wisdom? I think this is when actions and things have a purpose at least. A Samsara, an illusion are a part of the world created by God. A reason of a human suffering is these things. And first question appears: What's a purpose of a Samsara and an illusion?

  2. #2
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    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    Namaste

    In my view, this is not describable strictly, but the nearest we can come is that in order for the one to become the many (though strictly speaking, there was no actual becoming, or time before which the many did not exist in the one), an artificial ignorance was a necessary device.

    When the ignorance is dispelled, only the One is left, yet projected as the Many. Thus, rather than one being enjoying infinite bliss, an infinitude of beings enjoy infinite bliss as One being.

  3. #3

    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    हरिः ओम्


    Namaste mayakruha,


    Welcom to HDF, pleased to meet you. It is customary here to make a short introduction over in the relevant
    sub forum, found here , nice to meet you ...


    Not to worry!

    This is a deep question that you ask, if I might offer a few thoughts from the perspective of Kashmir Shavism.

    We don't need to only believe in God we can also see and experience God, there is then no question as to
    whether we hold a belief. God becomes a realisation.


    saṃsāra is that which binds humans together in a community. It is psychological either or Ākāśa. It grows
    and changes through time; as culture, knowledge, belief.
    This is knowledge of a differentiated nature.

    Experienced from within a culture, often in an objective way.


    praṇāma

    mana


    ॐ नमः शिवाय
    Aum Namaḥ Śivāya
    Last edited by Mana; 27 June 2012 at 11:48 AM.
    8i8

  4. #4

    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    Shuddhasattva and Mana, Thanks for your answers.

    I see a life as an evolution process. The evolution is a part of the material world at least. I think a spiritual way on the earth as a process is an evolution process. The evolution process consists of consecutive steps. You must see a purpose to do the step to a right direction.
    I see according to a hindu doctrine a purpose of a life is to break a samsara cycle. And If I strive for it I must see Why do I need it. If you don't see then it's possible you will go on an unright way.

    Therefore
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuddhasattva
    this is not describable strictly...
    Can you be sure that you broke a samasra cycle ?(When you take a last exam in a sсhool you see why you needed the school and what you will do at nearest time after)

    Mana, I agree with you fully.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mama
    We don't need to only believe in God we can also see and experience God, there is then no question as to whether we hold a belief
    Therefore, I ask these questions. I tried to look for inside myself and to see why I chose my way. And I see I don't have a full understanding.

    Imagine, you are broke a samsara cycle. And what after? Milk rivers? An end of the evolution? No time? What?
    Let's imagine. How do you see it?

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    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    namaste mayakruha and others.

    The term samsAra means a course, passage, passing through a succession of states in a cycle. Bhagavan Das defines the term as the World Process in his book The Science of Peace in which traces the why and how of samsAra and the roles of the scenary and actors involved in the process and their relationship with Brahman. You can read the book here in HDF starting from this thread:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2598
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/for...=13&order=desc

    Essentially, Vedas and UpaniShads describe samsAra as the result of Brahman's desire to know him better. Why does a novelist write his/her masterpiece or a film director bring out an alltime hit film? Their primary aim is express their personality in their product. Thus, all the characters in a novel are the expressions of the self of its author, who also creates their illusory world.

    The difference between the characters in a novel and us is that they cannot know their author, whereas we have that legacy. With proper inquiry, the wise say, that we would find that the Self or Atman, which is one and the same for all, is the author of the World Process. Once we start to know even intellectually that we are not what we are and that what we are, are only the roles we are assigned to play in this birth, such knowledge would make our lives better and more meaningful, especially because of the peace and happiness that such attitude brings in.

    Bhagavan Das has a simple but profound theory for the World Process. He says it is encoded in the single letter/syllable AUM. In that syllable, which is better known as praNava mantra, A stands for Atman--Self, U for anAtman--Not Self and M for negation of the Not Self by the Self. This negation is a continuous and cyclic process, which in turn generates all the space, time and jIvas--individual souls in the world and make them undergo births and deaths in a karmic reincartion cycle. The solution to come out of the cycle lies in the true knowledge of the Self, which is obtained by the intense inquiry of neti, neti--I am not this body, mind, fame, home, world and so on--and if I am NOT all of these, when who am I?
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  6. #6

    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    Saidevo Thanks to you
    I read your links. I haven't known the story about Nachiketa. I found in Wikipedia One of the points of Yamsa's explanation is "Inability to realize Brahman results in one being enmeshed in the cycle of rebirths. Understanding the Self leads to moksha"

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Essentially, Vedas and UpaniShads describe samsAra as the result of Brahman's desire to know him better. Why does a novelist write his/her masterpiece or a film director bring out an alltime hit film? Their primary aim is express their personality in their product. Thus, all the characters in a novel are the expressions of the self of its author, who also creates their illusory world.
    Do I understand correctly?
    There aren't boundaries between our SELFs and God. We all is a part of God. Brahman creates worlds to know himself through a playing of many roles. Therefore he creates an illusion to create separated creatures. At the end when God will know himself through the playing he'll finish to play and destroy worlds, gods, all.

  7. #7

    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    हरिः ओम्


    Namaste mayakruha, All,

    Quote Originally Posted by mayakruha View Post
    ... Imagine, you are broke a samsara cycle. And what after? Milk rivers? An end of the evolution? No time? What?
    Let's imagine. How do you see it?
    Might I ask you if an egg is broken when it hatches?

    Another perspective:

    Just as the seed pod, which breaks to release its seeds; is certainly not broken. Now if we imagine one single seed, frozen in the
    freezing soil of a terrible winter. This seed will not open until the spring or thaw, but it will open.
    Bursting asunder to produce
    new plants in the next generation.

    It is within the very nature of time, to blossom and flower as it unfolds, and might consider our own lives to be leaves upon a
    plant.


    Returning to our seed; how many plants are contained within it?


    praṇāma

    mana


    ॐ नमः शिवाय
    Aum Namaḥ Śivāya
    8i8

  8. #8

    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    Namaste, Mana

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Might I ask you if an egg is broken when it hatches?

    Another perspective:

    Just as the seed pod, which breaks to release its seeds; is certainly not broken. Now if we imagine one single seed, frozen in the
    freezing soil of a terrible winter. This seed will not open until the spring or thaw, but it will open. Bursting asunder to produce
    new plants in the next generation.

    It is within the very nature of time, to blossom and flower as it unfolds, and might consider our own lives to be leaves upon a
    plant.

    Returning to our seed; how many plants are contained within it?
    Perhaps I don't understand a hinduism concept. But I think that a purpose of a human soul is an union with God. It's principal difference betwen a human soul and a seed, an egg etc. An egg, a chicken don't strive for an union with a cock. A seed and a sprout don't strive for an union with a plant.

    Or if we use your analogy then we must consider an exit from samsara (illusion) like an initiation us. After an exit we become Gods (like seed becomes plant that created a seed) and then we can create other worlds, souls. I met a similar point of view.

    Do you believe it? I'll be glad if you show me hindu scriptures where this conception is written.

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    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    Namaste maya,

    Quote Originally Posted by mayakruha View Post
    What's a purpose of a Samsara and an illusion?
    What is the purpose of sky being blue ? What is the purpose of having a body which cannot take food directly from the Sun ? What is the purpose of having scarcity of 'good' things in life ?

    Somehow we get hooked to this idea that there is purpose behind everything and there is an answer to all "whys". It is really not so. For getting the correct answer, we have to break this fixation of 'purpose' as the driving force behind all perceived action. Unless we do that, we will be giving all imaginative answers and neither will be able to be near the Truth.

    We all know about radioactive substances like Uranium, Radium etc. The radiations come out of Uranium 235 because of the nature of the Uranium and laws which govern that. Similar is the case with Brahman. Brahman has three MAyic (illusory) states. The fourth state which is the unconditioned blissful and peaceful state of Brahman apparently projects these three states. Our SamsAra comes into the first two states ... this world and the world after death or before birth. The third is God state which is the causal state, the controller of the first two states and blissful state of Brahman.

    Brahman has no need to "know" itself nor does it need to "experience" anything as it is Consciousness itself. It is in the nature of the fourth state to project the three states and from that comes our samsara. Why is it so ? Really, no one knows. Yes, all these samsara, sufferings and joys and sorrows are just dreams of Brahman i.e. from the fourth state, these have no more reality than a dream. Once yo attain Self Realisation, you come to realise : There was never was a Samsara, you were never bound, you never suffered. It was all like a dream ... a bad dream ... that is all !

    Let's understand that Brahman is changeless. It is not affected by whatever happens in this relative existence of ours. So, there can't be any purpose behind all this .. if it was there, the Brahman would have changed as you said, "At the end when God will know himself through the playing he'll finish to play and destroy worlds, gods, all." would have been possible. However, it won't ever happen as there is no purpose behind all this. You can see it as just an idle sport of Brahman.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #10

    Re: A purpose of an illusion

    हरिः ओम्


    Namaste mayakruha,


    Quote Originally Posted by mayakruha View Post
    ... Perhaps I don't understand a hinduism concept. But I think that a purpose of a human soul is an union with God. It's principal difference betwen a human soul and a seed, an egg etc. An egg, a chicken don't strive for an union with a cock. A seed and a sprout don't strive for an union with a plant.

    Or if we use your analogy then we must consider an exit from samsara (illusion) like an initiation us. After an exit we become Gods (like seed becomes plant that created a seed) and then we can create other worlds, souls. I met a similar point of view.

    Do you believe it? I'll be glad if you show me hindu scriptures where this conception is written.

    You have previously spoken of breaking saṃsāra cycles, so I gave these analogy's,
    I was not referring to achieving a constant state of bliss in Universal God conciousness.


    An awakening or realisation, yes. A dawning; some might say a second birth.

    I am using the expansion by Swami Laksman Ju, of the Siva Sutras as my point of reference,
    I have complete confidence in his interpretation of this shastra, I find that it concurs with my experience.
    I also have very vivid images in my memory after having read certain upanishads; not being a very
    pedagogic scholar; you will have to take my word on that; at least until I have a few more years of study
    under my belt. At which time I will be able to give references.

    We must learn to judge for our selves.

    God is within all of nature, I see this plainly, thus need no scriptural reference for proof of this,
    I do delight in seeing the similarity between that, and the images within the scriptures.
    prajāpati's will is done, that he might reproduce him self to his hearts content ...


    praṇāma

    mana


    ॐ नमः शिवाय
    Aum Namaḥ Śivāya
    Last edited by Mana; 29 June 2012 at 11:51 AM.
    8i8

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