Shubhanallah, Mohammedan men are not only after Hindu/Sikh girls!

[philosoraptor]

Namaste

One need not adhere to the exact dogma/teachings to be counted among its ranks and influenced by it. One can miss all the positive teachings - and every system has them, even in pathetic quantities such as Islam; they need some measure of truth and righteousness to convince anyone - and imbibe only the negative teachings and inculcated attitudes stemming therefrom, yet still derive support from the community, and nourish an identity with it.

Consider, for example, Latino gangs in the US. Many of them are devout Christians, or would consider themselves to be such. Yet how do they behave?

Pranams,

Ok, let's take Latino gangs in the US. They engage in gang warfare, male chauvinism, drug-dealing, and all sorts of other unspeakable acts. Yet, these people are nominally Christian and may even wear symbols to indicate their religious affiliation (crucifix earrings, tattoos, etc). The analogous situation would be for a Latino population to begin growing in a non-Christian country, and for journalists to report that the increased tendency towards gang warfare is a problem associated with Christianity. Would you consider that a responsible and defendable conclusion?

This isn't a question of political correctness. I don't care much for Islam or Christianity. To me, these are false religions. But I think one has to be fair, put aside one's inherent biases, and look at the facts. It *might* be that Islam has conditioned these criminals to behave in this way towards women, but the article as written has not made a good case to support that. From the article: "Ella Cockbain, a University College of London crime science specialist, says research shows that mostly Asian men make up the big groups of offenders who work together. She chooses her words carefully because the sample size is small and the topic sensitive." Also of note, the men involved were found guilty of sexual exploitation of non-Muslim women, but strangely, not of their own women. If it were purely a misogyny thing, would they not be guilty of it towards Muslim women also? Finally, there is the fact that these men were using alcohol and other obviously forbidden acts to entice these women. And their motivation, contrary to what was claimed earlier, does not appear to have been "conversion to Islam." All of this makes it difficult to accept that Islam is what inspired them to commit these crimes. Rather, it sounds like they were sexual predators by nature, and they used Islamic arguments to rationalize their crimes after the fact.

The religion of the Koran is abominable. It preaches the willful destruction of non-Muslim places of worship, prejudice against Jews, Christians, and "polytheists," and was spoken by a "prophet" who has a known history of subjugating women (especially the women of conquered tribes). That being said, there are many Muslims today who, despite their claims to fidelity to Islam, don't really subscribe to all of what it teaches. I am hard-pressed to believe that most Muslim men in spite of education and professional standing secretly fantasize about sexually exploiting young girls. I could be made to believe that, if there was objective data to support such a conclusion. Until then, I see serious problems with the idea of projecting child sexual abuse as a problem seen primarily in other ethnic groups. Oh no, it can't happen to us, and so we look the other way when it does...

[Believer]

Namaste P/Raptor,

I commend you for being the lone voice of reason, but the central issue here is the concerted attack of Islam on non-Islamic women - be they Xitian or Hindu/Sikh. Everything else is a sideshow and a distraction.

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

Namaste P/Raptor,

I commend you for being the lone voice of reason, but the central issue here is the concerted attack of Islam on non-Islamic women - be they Xitian or Hindu/Sikh. Everything else is a sideshow and a distraction.

Pranam.

I agree that this is a huge problem, especially in places like Pakistan and other Islamic states. I'd even agree that it can be a problem in Western countries where Islamic proselytizing is carried out under a banner of secular protection. I am reminded in particular of a trend in British universities where Muslim males are reported to be actively targetting Hindu females for seduction, then reveal their Islamic fundamentalist streak after ruining the girls chastity and insist on marriage.

But.... I'm not sure that is really what is illustrated by this specific case of child predators from Rochedale, Britain.

[wundermonk]

I agree that this is a huge problem, especially in places like Pakistan and other Islamic states. I'd even agree that it can be a problem in Western countries where Islamic proselytizing is carried out under a banner of secular protection. I am reminded in particular of a trend in British universities where Muslim males are reported to be actively targetting Hindu females for seduction, then reveal their Islamic fundamentalist streak after ruining the girls chastity and insist on marriage.

Why? What is the reason we have a "huge problem, in places like Pakistan and other Islamic states." What is the root cause? Can we identify a pattern? I wonder what is common among the problem places you identified - Pakistan and other Islamic states. Possibilities are:

(a)race
(b)language
(c)religion

Hmmm...this is going to be very difficult.

[philosoraptor]

Why? What is the reason we have a "huge problem, in places like Pakistan and other Islamic states." What is the root cause? Can we identify a pattern? I wonder what is common among the problem places you identified - Pakistan and other Islamic states. Possibilities are:

(a)race
(b)language
(c)religion

Hmmm...this is going to be very difficult.

Pranams,

As I had indicated, I don't doubt that religion is the problem in those places and with regard to those situations. I've been most critical of both Christianity and Islam when I've been allowed to be (I can't help but note that it's usually other Hindus who get uncomfortable when I criticize those "religions"). However, I don't agree that all problems in which people nominally identified as Muslims are involved are ipso facto problems due to Islam. Child sexual exploitation has been going on in many countries and quite possibly for centuries. The article does not present a convincing case that child sexual exploitation in the UK has specifically increased due to the presence of Islam. Perhaps that is the case, and I'm sure we would all like to believe it, but the data is not there to show it yet.

Sadly, it is human nature to project social tragedies as problems primarily pertaining to "other" cultures. Some years ago, an Indian woman (not Muslim) committed suicide by jumping in front of a train in the UK. The newspapers were quick to point out that, being Indian, it could only be that she was the victim of age-old, Indian pressures specifically targetted against women.

Note the implicit journalistic double-standard here: White, Christian women can become depressed and suicidal without any external stimuli to explain it - we simply say they had a chemical imbalance of the brain. But when a Brown, Hindu woman becomes depressed and suicidal, then it can only be that she has a bad husband who is forcing tradition down her throat.

Similarly, when a White Christian man engages in child sexual abuse, then he is simply a criminal, and no one invokes his ethnicity or religious beliefs to explain it. But when a Brown, non-Christian man does it, then suddenly the crime acquires a sensationalist, minority-cultural underpinning in the eye of the dominant majority culture.

regards,

[wundermonk]

As I had indicated, I don't doubt that religion is the problem in those places and with regard to those situations.

Thank you. Here is a non-Hindu perspective on the problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKLV6rmLxE

[PARAM]

It is hard to believe that Islam is a religion, I accepts that Christianity is a religion but it is much corrupted. But Islam is a complete terrorism sponsored by zombies influenced by kuran virus.

When somebody is influenced by the Kuran Virus, this transforms them into Zombie Muslim and the Muslim spread terror Islam. These real live non fictious Zombies are not only thirsty of blood but also hungry of flesh.

Kuran+Muslim+Islam = Virus+Zombie+Terror

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

Ok, let's take Latino gangs in the US. They engage in gang warfare, male chauvinism, drug-dealing, and all sorts of other unspeakable acts. Yet, these people are nominally Christian and may even wear symbols to indicate their religious affiliation (crucifix earrings, tattoos, etc). The analogous situation would be for a Latino population to begin growing in a non-Christian country, and for journalists to report that the increased tendency towards gang warfare is a problem associated with Christianity. Would you consider that a responsible and defendable conclusion?

Yes, absolutely. They have a religion that lets them get away with it. Sin, confess & take mass, rinse, repeat. Some of the Catholic Church's individual members may at some time oppose this sort of superficial Christian identity - often ending up in priests who speak out against gang violence getting shot or otherwise silenced. The Church is much more concerned with making sure fertility rates stay high - ammunition in the war for souls (and mo money), if you will, their interests lie more along lines of extracting money, influencing politics to its advantage - namely retaining tax exempt status, currying political influence, silencing scandals of all kinds, etc.,

I hope you understand that at various times a large percentage of contributions to the Catholic Church in the US have been made by Catholic organized crime gangs - Irish, Italian, Mexican - especially after the prohibition made narcotics trade lucrative.

If the host country was honest about what it was experiencing, it would certainly conclude that Christianity is a factor.

Now, modern Christianity, partially tamed by secular humanism (which, though in the Indian context, is nigh a curse word in how it's manipulatively applied was, in the European context, an unparalleled blessing which delivered man's mind there from the shackle of Christianity) is not nearly as misogynistic as Islam, though it can often be more racist. Islam might, with some accuracy, be called the religion of misogyny. It is the price one pays for denying female divinity, and fostering the idea of a god who sets up the universe as an arbitrary torture machine, besides for scripting for aggressive attitudes against other cultures. Islam even allows one to sexually enslave the women (and children) of the nations one is at war at. Fundamentally, Islam breeds an "us and them" mentality, it allows one to separate oneself, and one's ilk, sharply from those defined as unbelievers. One's morality in regard to the unbelievers is held a separate affair from the morals taught in regards to the faithful.

Many of these immigrants aren't coming to contribute to their nation, they're coming to feed off of it.

It is not the House of Safety to them.


islam is more a factor in these people's behavior than Christianity is in the case of Latino gangs, where it certainly is a factor.

But my point is that beyond the ink-and-paper teachings of Islam is the religious community built up around it which 'serve' to orchestrate Muslim society around them, they have an absolute vested interest in keeping their Islamic ghettoes a separate, insular society in which they have the supreme power and its goodies often supplied to them by such people as these parasites, the likes of which are often well-respected in their communities, contributors to it even. Their activites may be known about, but not checked, because after all, aren't they exploiting the enemy to the gain of the faithful?

Islam is a major problem here. Without Islam to culturally isolate them with its sense of separation from everything "not-Islam" these people could assimilate and become valuable members to society as a whole.

Namaste

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

One last thing before I depart from this thread: it is not that Islam somehow makes otherwise decent souls to fantasize about enslaving non-Islamic women; but it, and its society, give succor and justification to those who would, rather than reining them in.

Namaste

[charitra]

The mention of latino groups I think on this thread is a bad idea, the analogy is flawed, if I may say so. Latinogroups, black and white groups have no religious fervor or flavor. Its everything to do with the race and types of crimes they engage themselve sin, for they are all Christians and they don’t go after non Christians. The OP clearly and rightly identifies one religious group poaching on the other religions.

During 90s I lived in England, and observed that the muslim men were clearly going after hindu and sikh girls in the name of love and romance and the latter were forced to convert when the day of wedding approached.There was no way around it. The blackmail was planned right in the mosques, the clerics say,’ go after the hindus and Sikhs etc, convert them, that’s your religious duty’. That was the mantra then and possible now. Parents were scared that their liberal upbringing was the biggest mistake and as a result their daughters are victims of Islamic militancy. I think, thanks to London bombings and many more subsequent open venomous assertions by muslims, awareness has risen considerably about the scheme hatched in mosques. As was already pointed out above, the religion sanctions atrocities on adherents of other faiths. Nonmuslim women are an easymeat, without any doubts. Some of you must read the blog of Ali sina, amil Imani, wafa sultan etc. Also, please google faithfreedom. org for some interesting analysis, most conclude good people are turned into bad people by the manuals recited by the mullahs. It is not people making religion bad there, instead, it is the religious texts that make people bad in Islam.