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Thread: Islam is impossible

  1. #21
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Namaste,

    Thank you for your very detailed post. I agree with almost everything you said in the first part. It is not merely enough to go through with the "rituals" such as salah, zakah, hajj, sawm, etc, but you must also being performing them with the right intentions. The problem with this is, with salah being required 5 times a day, there is no way I can guarantee that I am in a perfectly spiritual mood when the time for prayer comes around. I can guarantee that there will be many times where I will be doing it, not because I'm in the mood to pray, but because I have to. I really don't like this attitude, honestly.

    As for the ahadith attributed to Ali, are you serious?!?! That's incredible. I had never heard of such things. If you don't mind, could you either post them here or PM them to me? I'd love to read more about this. When I was taught that Ali was infallible, I truly believed it. And although these actions may not be considered failing in the most staunch Islamic idealism, I don't think they're right either. If someone worshiped me, I would be slightly appreciative, and slightly amused. Maybe a little worried about their mental health. I certainly wouldn't condemn them to death for shirk! And a terrible death at that, bring burned alive?! I can't think of a much worse way to go.
    Namaste,

    Here is the Sunni narration first:

    Abu al-Nu‘man Muhammad ibn al-Fadl related to us: Hammad ibn Zayd related to us from Ayyub from ‘‘Ikrimah who said: “Some Zanadiqah were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. This reached Ibn ‘Abbas and he said: I would not have burnt them because of the prohibition by the Messenger of Allah (saw): ‘Do not punish with the punishment of Allah.’ I would have killed them in accordance with the word of the Messenger of Allah (saw): ‘Whoever changed his religion kill him’.” (Sahih Bukhari)

    Ahmad ibn ‘Abdah al-Dabbi al-Basri related to us: ‘Abd al-Wahhab al-Thaqafi related to us: Ayyub related to us from ‘Ikrimah that ‘Ali burned some people who abandoned Islam. This reached Ibn ‘Abbas and he said: I would have killed them in accordance with the word of the Messenger of Allah (saw): ‘Whoever changed his religion kill him’. I would not have burnt them in view of the word of the Messenger of God: ‘Do not punish with the punishment of Allah.’ This reached ‘Ali and he said: Ibn ‘Abbas has spoken the truth” (Sunan Tirmidhi)

    I am having difficulty finding the Shia version of this particular hadith (I no longer have my Shia books), what I know is that the Shia do not accept that Ibn Abbas criticized Imam Ali on the issue, but they also accept that Ali burned them alive and that it was a fair judgement. Here is the Shia version of Ali allowing murder of those who commit sodomy:

    Once Khalid bin Valeed wrote to Abu Bakr that there was a man who was in the habit of getting the act of Sodomy committed on him (the - man). Abu Bakr who was the leader then asked for Hazrat Ali (A)'s advice in the matter saying that the Arabs viewed the cutting of a person into pieces a very bad thing. Hazrat Ali (A) advised that the man in question should be burnt to death. The punishment was carried out accordingly. (Arjahul Matalib, p 126).
    Similary during the leadership of Omar two men were seen committing the act of sodomy. When apprehended, one of them ran away, but the other was caught and brought to the court of Omar.
    Omar when sought advice of the people in the matter, . All proposed different punishments to be awarded to the accused. Omar then turned to Hazrat Ali (A) and asked for his advice in deciding the case according to the divine law. Hazrat Ali (A) advised Omar to behead the man. When the punishment was carried out according to the advice of Hazrat Ali (A) and under the orders of Omar and the body of the accused was being carried away, Hazrat Ali (A) stopped the people and said that there was another punishment yet which was to be awarded to the man who had committed such a serious crime. He then ordered the people to collect fire-wood and burn the dead body of the man.. The orders of Hazrat Ali (A) were accordingly carried out with the consent of Omar. (Wafi, vol. 9, p. 51).
    Hazra Imam Sadiq (A) has said :
    “None from among men, who considers sodomy a correct action and having religious sanction, passes his life on earth without being hit by one of the stones from Allah by which He hit the nation of Lot, and he dies of it, but the people do not see it.”
    (Qasasul Ambia, p. 162).


    Ali also allowed stoning to death of adultery which was the norm in Islamic law.

    It is very difficult at first to grasp some of these things, especially when Ali is seen as a hero and great leader. I admired him greatly. I also admired Sistani. Later with time I just grew away from it when I began meditating and placing more emphasis on that than Salat. I remember I would get the Salat out of the way so I could meditate. I felt so guilty at times, but I could not stop meditating. We all have to find our paths. I hope you find yours. You have a rational mind and even greater than that rational mind, you have a deeper intuition that can guide you to God.


    Om Namah Shivaya

  2. #22
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Admin Note

    namaste,
    Please keep it on topic and save everyone some time.
    satay

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