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Thread: Islam is impossible

  1. #11
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by Mu'mineen View Post
    It's alright, I've come to terms with what I am lol.

    Who may I contact to have a name change? Is there an admin that would do that for me? Now I just have to choose a better name.

    Out of curiosity, why would it offend native Hindus? Mu'mineen is your exact name, but in Arabic instead of English. Is it because of how Muslims have invaded India and ruled in a horrible manner in the past?
    Hi Mu'mineen:

    I think your name means, "believer", yes? Unfortunately, India's experience with Islam has been/continues to be brutal. We all know that generalization about an entire set of people 1.7 Billion Muslims based on India's experience with Islam is not fair, but it is what it is. We are also human and subject to human passions.

    That said, I personally am not offended by your username. Believer-ji may be. It is up to you.

    PM Satay for a name change request if you have to. He is the mod.

  2. #12
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Namaste
    That's something, I think, that draws me to Dharmic faiths. Hindu gods come in various Avatars, so I can worship the one that I am drawn to the most, with the characteristics I view god as having. Buddhism focuses on the self and sometimes the Buddha, both of which are much easier to relate to than some concept of god that is "out there"
    .

    I just want to point out that the dharmic conception of God is very different; in Abrahamic faiths where God is viewed as an external power, in Dharma God is external and internal, often with emphasis on the internal.

    God is never merely "out there."

    This, I feel, should be a crucial platform for you to change your conceptualization of God.

    Namaste

  3. #13
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    That said, I personally am not offended by your username. Believer-ji may be. It is up to you.

    PM Satay for a name change request if you have to. He is the mod.
    I agree.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #14
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Namaste,

    I am a Muslim (Shia Ithna-Asheri Usuli), but I am seriously about done with it. I have so many issues with it, I don't even know where to start.
    Namaste,

    Welcome to the forums. I am glad that you are here, regardless if you pursue Hinduism or stick with Islam.

    There are SO many freaking rules. Now, don't get me wrong, if it truly is God's religion, I would follow them willingly, but I find it hard to believe that God is this picky. For example, you're required to pray 5 times a day and fast the month of Ramadhan. I figured that if you didn't, but started up at some point, you would simply go from being a bad Muslim to being a good Muslim. Apparently not. Prayers and fasts are like some sort of bank account where it's all or nothing. I talked to a scholar, and found out that for me to get into good standing with Allah, I would have to make up 4,745 prayers, 60 fasts, and pay $1,700 worth of rice to the needy.

    Holy sh*t.
    Yes, this puts people off a lot. The reason is because the rules are very idealistic. You have to constantly strive with effort and never are able to be a perfect muslim. I have been around many muslims and I did not find one that did not struggle with this. As you said there is a bank account when doing deeds. You have to check every niyah (intention) and make sure you are doing things correctly. In your case it would have to be in accordance with the Ithna Ashari Usuli sect of Shia Islam. So you have to make sure you are following the Qur'an based on what the 12 Imams have given in ahadith such as al-Kafi and elsewhere. It creates more noise with all the details of everything.

    I can't do that. This is only for two years of living a bad life. Can you imagine for someone that has gone for 20 years?! I'm willing to pay for my "sins" by being punished for them, because I recognize that every action has consequences, but this is borderline ridiculous.
    I know what you mean. If you do not make up the missed Salat you will be doomed. I remember having to do this. I would sometimes do prayer after prayer at 3am in the morning to try to catch up my Salat, but still I failed.

    That's another thing. Why is Heaven/Hell an absolute? What happens to good people that weren't Muslims? What about Muslims that fulfill all their requirements but are bad people in general? I really like the concept of eternal bliss in Jannah (heaven), but why is it an absolute? Why is it all or nothing?
    This is the problematic dogma of Abrahamic faiths that suggest the "non-believers" will go to hell eternally. What is interesting is if you trace all the Abrahamic faiths back to Judaism you will find that the early Jews worshipped multiple gods which included Yahweh and Asherah. Yahweh being the god of the bible and Asherah being the Goddess of Eden. So it is odd that their faith later changed to a monotheistic religion due to their racial pride in their tribal deity Yahweh and dropped all other gods. How can these people say all else are going to hell, when it was their ancestors that came up with the concept of Yahweh, Asherah, and the garden of Eden, before any concept of some monotheistic deity. So who is really going to hell, when they rely on such innovated way of thinking.

    There are MANY other issues I have with Islam, too many to name. I still feel a deep connection to Islam and the Imams (especially Imam Ali and Imam Mahdi), but living like a good Muslim is impossible unless you live in Iran or something, where it's the social norm to do everything perfectly according to Islamic law.
    Imam Ali has some interesting quotes attributed to him that seems to suggest an inward quest, but I still cannot get passed the fact of him murdering homosexuals and burning alive those who worshiped him during his reign. This is testified by Shia historians and Sunni. This is the famous narration in which people worshiped Ali as if he was allah, so Ali had a ditch dug and he put these innovators (people of Bidah) in the ditch and set them on fire. This is justified both in Sunni and Shia hadiths. The Sunni have some criticism from Ibn Abbas, ibn abbas objection was not because Ali killed them, but because he used fire. Ibn Abbas said that only allah punishes with fire. That is why when Ali was burning them alive, they said that he must be allah since he is using fire. I find this such a harsh inhumane way of stopping an innovation, regardless if it is Shirk (making partners with allah). But I also did like ali when I was in Islam, it wasnt until later that I started rethinking all of Islam and its history.

    The biggest obstacle you face is fear (if you have any fear). The reason I say this is because I remember being afraid to leave Islam due to the fear of eternal damnation. You just have to take that leap if you choose to. Trust me, it is much brighter on the other side

    Om Namah Shivaya

  5. #15

    Re: Islam is impossible

    Namaste,

    First, welcome to Mu'mineen (or whatever you might be renaming yourself);
    what I am reminded of by this thread, is the history of humanity's craving
    for simplification, of the tragic peril of its mismanagement...
    For here I come to read the utterly bizarre tale of worshipers who claim to
    have been right all along, because the man they've deified is burning them alive-
    and since "only God punishes with fire", he must therefore be God; of course,
    if he were indeed God, they would be doing no wrong in worshiping him, and
    therefore would not be subject to such a horrifying execution... not to
    mention the "problem" was not the mass killing of people who didn't believe
    the proper thing, it was using an execution method reserved for God?

    This is what the human craving for simplicity can lead to. "Too many shades
    of grey, this life, this world, it is all too complicated!" This cry goes out,
    and it is heard and eagerly answered: the insane, and those who crave power
    through manipulation, are more than ready to paint the world in black and white...

    Consider how this can be seen even in the seemingly banal scenario of
    a Western supermarket shopper, looking at toilet paper; the aisle contains
    dozens of choices, far more than is logically sensible for such a basic product.
    Yet, this serves the purpose of information overload, of creating anxiety
    within the shopper, which will lead to an emotional, rather than a logical
    decision, training the shopper to "give up", and buy what toilet paper they're told to.
    There are people who are fanatically loyal to one brand of cola over "the other brand",
    who have never asked themselves why carbonated sugar-water should be
    so important to them in the first place.
    The false dichotomy is no endangered species...

    So- in light of this human tendency, and the highly challenging and complex
    nature of any serious metaphysical enquiry, it becomes less of a mystery
    as to why simplistic extremism endures. Sanatana Dharma rewards more
    contemplation, more investigation, of the "big questions", instead of punishing;
    and I can absolutely promise I will not dig a ditch and burn you
    alive in it if you disagree with me!

    JAI MATA DI
    || जय माता की ||

  6. #16
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Namaste JaiMaaDurga

    Quote Originally Posted by JaiMaaDurga View Post
    ...For here I come to read the utterly bizarre tale of worshipers who claim to
    have been right all along, because the man they've deified is burning them alive-
    and since "only God punishes with fire", he must therefore be God; of course,
    if he were indeed God, they would be doing no wrong in worshiping him, ...
    I wonder if anyone has ever done a study or delved into the psychology (or psychopathology) of the human need to believe such things. For example, whether it's true or not, I've read that our innate fear and/or dislike of snakes is from our primitive past when as small tree-dwelling mammals, our ancestors were preyed upon by snakes. There must be something hardwired from something that causes roughly 50% (3.6 billion Christians and Muslims) of humans to believe in such a God.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  7. #17
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Vannakkam: In my humble opinion, its just one thing ... fear. It is a chakra of consciousness below the muladhara. Real religion only starts at the muladhara.

    Aum Namasivaya

  8. #18
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Namaste EM.

    So if I understand correctly, it is the seat of kundalini, which is dormant, and not in control of spiritual awareness. If that's the case, Ignorance is the twin of Fear. Or did I totally mangle that? I must delve into the chakras more.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  9. Re: Islam is impossible

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    .
    You are correct, Mu'mineen means believer. I have had it changed, however, to my current name. I have no problem with this, because a Mu'mineen implies a belief in Islam, which although I may still have, is severely waning. Every thing I learn about Sanatana Dharma, takes something away from my devotion to Islam. This is not necessarily a bad thing. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuddhasattva View Post
    .
    Namaste,

    Thank you for explaining that. Perhaps I am getting the wrong impression of god in Sanatana Dharma? From what I've gathered, there is one god (Brahman) that permeates all. There are different aspects of the one Brahman, and that's where we get all of the other gods (Vishnu & Shiva with all their avataras being the most popular). Therefore Brahman is merely "out there" and we can only reach him through the "minor" gods, which are facets of Him. Is this thinking flawed, or am I correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritualseeker View Post
    .
    Namaste,

    Thank you for your very detailed post. I agree with almost everything you said in the first part. It is not merely enough to go through with the "rituals" such as salah, zakah, hajj, sawm, etc, but you must also being performing them with the right intentions. The problem with this is, with salah being required 5 times a day, there is no way I can guarantee that I am in a perfectly spiritual mood when the time for prayer comes around. I can guarantee that there will be many times where I will be doing it, not because I'm in the mood to pray, but because I have to. I really don't like this attitude, honestly.

    As for the ahadith attributed to Ali, are you serious?!?! That's incredible. I had never heard of such things. If you don't mind, could you either post them here or PM them to me? I'd love to read more about this. When I was taught that Ali was infallible, I truly believed it. And although these actions may not be considered failing in the most staunch Islamic idealism, I don't think they're right either. If someone worshiped me, I would be slightly appreciative, and slightly amused. Maybe a little worried about their mental health. I certainly wouldn't condemn them to death for shirk! And a terrible death at that, bring burned alive?! I can't think of a much worse way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaiMaaDurga View Post
    .
    I had never really considered it from that angle before, honestly. But it makes perfect sense. A lot of westerners complain that Islam is complicated, but it really isn't. Islam can't even hold a candle to the complexity that is Hinduism. I was overwhelmed at first, and I still am! I don't even think that I am grasping the basic concepts well enough right now!! The studying that it will take to learn even the absolute basics of Hinduism would be enough to become a scholar of Islam, and get the title of Ayatollah! But choice is not necessarily a bad thing . . . I don't know why, but I am drawn to Shiva (as you can probably guess from my new username). Is Vishnu going to condemn me to the fiery pits of hell for it? Of course not! Vishnu is surely not that picky, arrogant, and selfish. Why is Allah, then? Same with the god of Christianity and Judaism. And they have the nerve to claim that Hindus give their gods human characteristics?! Maybe, but none of the bad ones. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jainarayan View Post
    .
    I have not heart of that before, but it sounds very interesting. I never considered it like that before. Despite the fact that I've always doubted the whole "garden of eden" story, I always imagined that the reason we humans have an aversion to snakes is because of Shaitan (satan) taking the form of a snake. I will have to reconsider.

  10. #20
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    Re: Islam is impossible

    Namaste

    Thank you for explaining that. Perhaps I am getting the wrong impression of god in Sanatana Dharma? From what I've gathered, there is one god (Brahman) that permeates all. There are different aspects of the one Brahman, and that's where we get all of the other gods (Vishnu & Shiva with all their avataras being the most popular). Therefore Brahman is merely "out there" and we can only reach him through the "minor" gods, which are facets of Him. Is this thinking flawed, or am I correct?
    Since we are starting with the view of the individual body-mind complex, to whom other things are external and "out there," especially when they are so transcendent as to be invisibly permeating the "out there," let's examine this more closely.

    One must understand the 'everywhere' that Brahman is pervading is both within, and without. The human body may seem like a small amount of area to conditioned, embodied consciousness, but it contains a vast amount of atoms, subatomic particles, etc. etc.

    Universes within universes within universes - surely you have contemplated such things.

    Now, what is selfhood here? Brahman is pure awareness; awareness is a fundamental, innate property of the universe. We see in biological life that matter organized itself, through energy and information, under the influence of negentropy. into more complex structures capable of processing information chemically, bioacoustically and electromagnetically, thus giving rise to a simulated form of consciousness - the individual ego.

    Now, what is occurring here? Consciousness, brahman, that which is beyond space, time, matter or energy, is being expressed on a lower, limited level in the material sphere, represented in a body.

    The word most commonly used to describe this in the vedas is Tanu (see JR Gardner @vedavid), a spreading presence confined to a particular area or type of substance. It is used more often to refer to Selfhood than Atman, though the latter is almost exclusively used in Vedanta. This is important because the Vedas lay the ground work for the self-cosmology that is a hallmark of Hinduism, and will become more clear later in this post.

    The atman, the core of selfhood that is an emanation of Brahman, is not, however, confined to a particular point, or arbitrary collection of points, in space, or for that matter, time. Rather, the entire material universe is composed of the collective energies of these atmans, the singular energy of the paramatman.

    The para (meaning transcendent, or supreme) atman is the "supersoul" the one soul from which all nominally individual souls dependently proceed from. Both the paramatman and the atman dwell at the innermost core of the individual being, called metaphorically, the heart. In the Upanishads, this is famously likened to two birds sitting in a tree, one eating the fruit of karma, the other silently witnessing.

    Paramatman is the infinitesimal manifestation which is a 'concentration' or 'representation' of the infinite; brahman. In reality, the paramatman is everywhere, but we take care to identify its subjectively highest seat as the core of the being - all beings. In reality, likewise by identifying (whether as, with or beholden unto) the Supreme Self the Self is Universalized and experienced in everything as a permeative quality - back to Tanu - that is no longer confined - Atanu.

    The individual soul neither the body nor the mind, it has no limitation as such, it is openly expressed as the noumenon behind all phenomenon.

    The Svetasvatara Upanishad, 5.9 says:

    vAlAgra-zata-bhAgasya zatadha kalpitasya ca
    bhAgo jIvas sa vijJeyas sa cAnantyAya kalpate
    "That soul the size of a hundredth part of a hundredth part of a hair, he, the potentially infinite, is to be known."

    In the context this is said it can apply both to the Paramatman and the Atman, to the extent that there is even a meaningful difference.

    As devotee has beautifully said about form and formlessness, such concepts of part, or partlessness themselves also become extinct, meaningless. To consider such a thing in materially bound terms of quantity and quality is fundamentally limited.

    This is truly the great triumph of Hinduism. Idolatry to an Abrahamic is the use of a physical object to represent the divine. Idolatry, according to Hinduism, consists of cognizing and concretizing physical objects to be non-divine, rather than experiencing the divine which underlies all objects, subjects and experiences. So long as we are engaged in the material experience, rather than the divine one, it is idolatry.

    The mirroring of the paramatman in the atman is also reflected in the mirroring of the cosmos (brahmanda) in the body (purusha). What really divides your awareness between the "out there" and the "in here"? It is the membrane of the ego, like that of a cell wall, filtering chemicals so as to preserve its own separateness from the external environment. The psychological membrane draws a veil over our minds that differentiates between the external and the internal, the objective and the subjective.

    The body is held to be a microcosm of the universe; the entire universe is represented in the subtle bodies within. Is this not all brahman?

    ==

    The above may be influenced by advaitin bias although most of it is applicable across the different philosophical views. Take it as you will; there are many viable paths.

    The Svetasvatara, along with the rest of the major upanishasd, may be good reading for you in this period: I, and I think many others, would consider the Upanishads to be the best entry point to learn more Hindu philosophy/theology, perhaps along with the Bhagavad Gita.

    Namaste

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