Is vegetarianism required?

[TatTvamAsi]

Hello ShivaFan,

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply by saying that "you've come across Indians who eat meat". I never implied nor stated that Indians, many of them, refrain from eating meat. Most, however, do not eat beef and pork. Coming across a westerner who is vegetarian is still very rare in the west, except in areas like where I live (Bay Area, CA). This is due to the enormous influence of a variety of factors; one of the largest Indian/Hindu populations in the US resides here, Berkeley was where many counter-cultural movements in the US during the 1960's took place, and people here (westerners) are not that xenophobic when compared to dumps in the armpits of america.

By absolute numbers or otherwise, there are simply far more Indians/Hindus who are vegetarian and are so due to Hindu influences than in the west, or anywhere else in the world. There is no comparison at all. Anyhow, the point here was to address the OP's question whether one "needs" to be vegetarian to be Hindu.

The fact of the matter is that Hindu society today is in shambles as far as a unified voice on such matters is concerned. Even otherwise, it really depends on the path the sAdhakA chooses. ShaktAs, for instance, are usually non-vegetarian. Smartas (not smartasS ), are almost all strict vegetarians. So, in essence, the question is really asking what makes one an authentic Hindu?

I have a certain viewpoint that is not popular even among Hindus. Hindus have been blindly taught to include anybody and everybody; partly due to the non-confrontational predisposition of the Indian ethos, as well as a severe inferiority complex, especially when compared to westerners. This is actually a never ending argument as many Swamis who are erudite Hindus will balk at the moment somebody brings up SAstric injunctions or principles.

Hindus are very afraid of difference or being different from others. In an effort to fit in and appear similar, they will go to any extent to claim sameness with others, despite the fact that those "others" are inimical towards India/Hinduism - Abrahamics for instance.

This is why you have people partaking psychedelics who claim that they too are Hindus when they are actually indulging in tamasic habits.

The point of the sAstrAs is to change OURSELVES, not it! I find that most westerners who come across anything that requires them to change have tremendous inertia and instead try to manipulate the source to fit their lifestyle or habits. In other words, they try to change the philosophy/religion/scripture etc. This is the very thing that so-called "religion" is against! We must change ourselves. It is not easy, but nobody said sAdhanA was "easy".

Many Indians emigrated to the west starting in the 1960s. My relatives came to Canada/US in the mid-1960s. Even then, it is not in the Hindu mindset to "change" others. This is why we don't "convert". People, eventually, will realize the folly in their ways and will rectify their rotten habits. It is not up to us to correct them and force them to change, no matter how barbaric their ways may seem. This is why Hindus are not "up in arms" about the meat industry worldwide. We know that those who are mature enough to think about ahimsa will eventually wean off of meat but those who are not will continue in their ways. It is not up to us to "change" them. Westerners, in particular, have this penchant for trying to change others to fit their own ideas; a deep insecurity and/or inferiority complex. They cannot bear difference and are always "concerned" as to why "others" do things differently. This is why they are "thumping" democracy around the world instead of the bible (they do that too but now it's considered taboo so they resort to more devious means of thumping that rag).

It is best if we just stick to ourselves; after all, we are better off with our own kind. That is the way of the past, present, and future. This synthetic attempt to shove everybody and their ways of life together is a recipe for disaster. This is why Indians/Hindus determined a society will perform optimally when its habitants focus on their strengths instead of worrying about what others are doing.

Vegetarianism has to come from the roots. It is simply not there outside of India. For it to take root, Hindus will have to really transplant their culture to other countries and given Indians/Hindus reluctance to propogate their lifestyle(s), the chance of that happening is qute low. That is why it has sustained in India for thousands of years. It is not a fad like it is in the west. Yoga is of the same vein as it was introduced to the west by Indians in the 1960s (although it made an entrance far before) it has become an "exercise for the body, of the body, and by the body", devoid of any of the real yogic underpinnings.

I sincerely hope vegetarianism spreads and spreads slowly; as that will more likely stick than a fast "trend" etc.

Namaste TatTvanAsi

Having been to India a dozen times, I am actually aware from observation of the large numbers of those who eat beef (cow) and pork (pig). While eating such in the US for example is very sad, and in notable numbers, there are reforms happening in the consciosness of Americans in this regards but there is still a long way to go.

While the numbers in the US may upon face value be larger than in India, simply taking into account the billion plus population of India the numbers of those eating beef and pork may be much larger than you think, and even not that far from the same number in the US for example simply do to (1) the math of such a huge population in India, (2) the increasing wealth of Indians who can afford such karmic food and (3) as you state the sad trend to fit in... There is no excuse, and while there is a trend away from beef and pork in the US though it is a weak trend, unfortunately it seems there is a trend towards such habit in India. Perhaps this can be reversed through pride in culture and pride in Hinduism.

Starting in the 1980s many, many educated Indians started to move to the West. This has accelerated the interest in Hindusm in the West, but also some such Hindu Indians also have taken to very bad habit even including beef and pork. It is odd in one way, the West is getting some reforms from India and Indians who migrate to the West, but some of those Indians start to take up beef and pork for example.

You know, there is nothing more anti-smoking fanatic than an ex-smoker. Such reformed smokers more often are the most strick and vocal critics of smoking. Isn't that true?

So also the most vocal and strick voices against eating beef and pork are often those who may have started out as such but then became reformed. They are the one's who often go public and "get in the street" if you will to fight against such habit.

So perhaps one of the best ways to counter such increasing beef and pork consumption in India is to bring a bunch of Western ex-beef and ex-pork eaters who now hate such, or Western ex meat eaters who are now fanatical vegans of devotion, bring them to India and perhaps these mleechas as you call them may change the mind set of so many Indians who are now trending to eat beef.


I was shocked to see, while on an airplane flying to India, so many Indians dressed as Hindus or Sikh who were eating sausage weiners on a Western airline flying into Delhi. It was sad to see.

Om Namah Sivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste TatTvamAsi

It’s hard to stay away from the HDF even for one day! I am on my way to a big multi-national Indian-style Hindu wedding (not me, I am already married!) but with the advent of technology the HDF is right there on my cell phone and I am just a finger touch away from reading and participating. But forgive any typos since I am using the smart phone which isn’t smart enough to aid me in UI replies using a touch keyboard and very small type and clumsy windows while navigating using the phone. I am usually better at this type of finger typing while sitting down like I am right now, and not while driving a car which I admit I have done a couple of times (in violation of the law and at risk of a very expensive traffic ticket!).

The world is becoming smaller. That’s a fact. So the borders of what is Hinduism, is larger, much larger than in the past. I really like some of the facts you shared, and I agree with them. Also, I think in part I was misunderstood as to some of the ideas that I posted, but considering the pace of the world today that makes it hard to sometimes communication real intent.

I never intended to imply that Hinduism is an evangelistic type truth that goes about trying to “convert” others. Satay also has clarified that in postings, and I fully agree. Just about four weeks ago, a very nice girl came to my front door to ask me about religion. She asked what “religion” I was, and I proudly said I am a Hindu. Yes, it turned out she was of some Christian sect (I think she was Mormon), but her reaction was actually very surprising. The reason I am not sure what Christian sect she was, was my revelation that I am a Hindu changed her conversation entirely. She was a young girl, a little nervous, but she responded how interesting that is. She did not condemn or say “you are going to go to hell” and such, she said there are positive things in all religions and she has encountered many religions door to door, and if I were ever interested (and she hands me a card for some church) … Of course, this is not typical of the aggressive type of Christians.
Hinduism does not engage in such activities, it is not part of the ethos and I never said it should be. But nothing is going to stop its expansion, it doesn’t need such activities to do so. Even exclusiveness within a community will make no difference, truth seems to be something of interest to too many souls in this world, and in a world that is ever increasingly becoming “smaller” (that is, this Earth or Mother Bhumi is smaller, of course the universe is very large and many souls have a long way to travel perhaps as time shapes things).

So as far as how Hinduism is, and belongs, to the entire Universe, across Lokas and such, that has nothing to do with a proselyting path. I never say so, but what I say does matter, it is what the teachers say. And what Devas and Devi decide to manifest. There are many things that come into play.

In regards to teachers, the Guru, the Saint, the Yogi, the mystic, the savant, I actually within my own observation (though flawed due to bodily prison), I see the opposite of what perhaps you see. Meaning, in regards to those who for example by Their grace and wisdom the West has benefited from, of all the so-called “Masters” and Gurus (of which some were bad, yes, but typically it would involve sexual matters and not karmic foods) actually I cannot think of even one who actually “changed the rules” regarding for example karmic foods – in fact, my experience has been they are the most strict of them all. You noted Shakti teachers, of which I did meet two, one was 100% a message of vegan principle, the other was not but definitely against eating beef or pork.

In fact, the few times where I was shocked to find schools or teachers who “bent rules” to be more “Western” regarding karmic foods, the only ones I saw were in India, not in the West. In regards to sexual matters, I think there are even many recent examples of bending things to have occured among Swamis who are India-centric than West facing. Maybe I am blind or confused, but that has been my personal observation. The ones who came from India to the West, all the ones I have ever encountered, were the most strict of all regarding such matters as karmic foods or vegetarianism.

Yes, there are other matters of concern, and not just karmic foods, I agree. But being this is the discussion, I was thinking of that specifically.

Again, perhaps an explanation for this has to do with sheer numbers and math, which I think you misunderstood a thought of mine. There is no doubt there are more vegans in India than in the West, this is why those who turn to the truth know India as Mother as well. We all know India is the Mother of all “Religion” meaning SD and Hinduism. She, in Herself, is a Devi, even the rivers and mountains are. My Lord Mahadeva has His Eternal City Kashi in India (physically, but spiritually there is much more to the truth than that, of course). So there is no question about that.

But in sheer numbers, probably simply do to the large population, there are also a very large number of souls living in India who partake karmic foods. Probably not as many in sheer numbers as the West, but it would not surprise me if it approximates the numbers by half or more. Which is a large number.
I am concerned also, in a trend to eat beef and pork in some cases among Indians. There are many reasons for that, I may not be articulate enough to understand or pinpoint why this is so. But I do see it, in some cases it is shocking.

So it is better if we can all trend the other way if possible, to be more aligned with the values you represent, for you are an outstanding example of that.
Because you are an outstanding example of that, please do not be afraid in front of others to let it be known your values, even if in front of “Westerners”. I am not saying you are afraid. I understand you want to protect what is best. I understand you do not want to associate with those who may be a danger to your values, or influence those around you whom you love in a negative way. But, in the example of the work environment, where I work those such as myself make it very, very clear regarding such matters (such as when the company orders food for employees) that there are societal and cultural consequences to being ignorant of others principles, and in fact where I work and in almost all companies I know of today in the US they have listened to us and in fact have enormous concern for their status among the community they reside and the values of those who are their employees and community and assets to the community. So they account for all, this is in fact the standard today and those who are in a position to dictate over others and do not account for such (for example to provide pure vegan food with no contamination from shared cooking utensils) they are terminated from employment. So this is what I mean about not being afraid. Always let it be known your situation, you will be respected for that.

Maybe I am naive, but I think my “ex-smoker” analogy has some merit. Is it better that such values grow, or become hidden within the world? I think it is better they grow. When I gave this example, I had in mind among the West those who are the most vocal about such matters are like “ex-smokers”, they once ate beef for example but now are strongly against it on all fronts. They have no fear. They express why they will not eat beef. They are open about it, not hidden. If confronted with beef, they will clearly say NO, and in front of everyone, and give reasons. Those who hear the reasons benefit. They do not hide. They won’t, since it is in their nature. In fact, sometimes, like the “ex-smoker”, go overboard a bit because they often hate the very idea of doing such a karmic act. Yes, not all are Hindus. But it is better that we grow, and not contract.

Principles of Dharma should not be compromised, and never to appear friendly or inclusive. My observation is, when this happens in the West, it is among Indians (born in India) who come to the West who do this, not teachers or Gurus or those in authority to represent Hinduism – my observation has been such Endowed Authorities are even more strict than in India regarding foot habit and such. In India, the teachers are Endowed, but in the few examples where perhaps they are “bending” things typically they seem to be India centric in location and not Western facing. Again, this may only be because of the sheer numbers involved in India and so it is more of a mathematical anomaly if anything else.

But in regards to hate, and simply in regards to the hope that the world becomes more aligned with the endowed values you have, I do not think the attitude such as “I hate all you mleechas, in fact so much so that why don’t you just also eat your pet parrot in addition to the cow!” … I am not saying you say that, but some have sort of that mindset. This may not be very beneficial on approach. They actually want what is already a bad situation to become worse. They actually WANT them to also start eating their “pet dog”. What good would that do? What good is it to make matters worse? Because, the problem is, if matters are made even worse, do not think the bad will not be knocking at your door very soon and perhaps even one day threaten even your own good family. The path to your door is much shorter today, in this world, than it was in the past. Those who are your neighbors, they are everywhere now. I think perhaps even you live in the West, I am not sure. By your good example in life and in public example, you set an example we can admire. And you will be admired, just see! Yes, we are in the Kali Yuga. That is why we value those such as yourself so much. Do not leave us totally alone.

In the next day I will be at a wedding. People from India, Canada, US, UK, Australia will all be there. Amazingly, this wedding is a Hindu wedding – amazing in the sense of the state of the world today. I am not saying things are getting better, in many ways things are getting worse. But there are many good signs, too.

Om Namah Sivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Didn't read the whole thread, but I had a though on an analogy for giving up meat, for those who say it's difficult. I've been blessed with both giving up meant and giving up cigarettes. Of the two, giving up meat is 100 times easier, because you can still EAT. As for giving up cigarettes, it would be like giving up food. Becoming a vegetarian compared top a smoker, is a s simple as switching tobacco brands.

Aum Namasivaya

[Guiding Thoughts]

Eating Meat is a matter of choice. Here's a link to a post on The Guiding Thoughts Blog , where Swami Vivekananda speaks on this subject. Its an interesting excerpt and worth a read.

http://guidingthoughts.blogspot.com/...-meat-and.html

Being vegetarian is more humane and saving a "life" or allowing someone to live would be the greatest act of Karma. Aside of this viewpoint, the economics of growing cattle for food is increasingly becoming more expensive, as fodder gets more and more expensive. Over a period of coming years, sheer economics of living, will drive people to be vegetarian.

Best regards
Guiding Thoughts

[Bhagavankibhakt]

Namaste,

I strongly believe that food is divided amongst the 3 gunas.
Sattvik food is bland, sweet, fresh, clean and great for the body causing no harm to it like raw fruits and vegetables.
Rajasik food is spicy and sour and may either be fresh or at least 1 day old which causes the body some form of pain and discomfort. (I will admit my diet consists almost completely of these types of foods)
Tamasik food is unclean, close to spoiling, unhealthy to the body and causes the body harm and discomfort. Meats and alcohol falls under this category.

Meats are also very acidic to the body and takes approx. 21 days to vacate the body completely. Which means if you want to be a fully practicing Hindu before you perform any pujas you would have to fast for 21 days before you can do them.

I personally have no objection to people eating meats however being a practicing and devout Hindu means we have to keep our bodies as clean and as healthy as possible. This is why I became a vegetarian 5 1/2 years ago.

Regards,
Bhagavankibhakt