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Thread: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

  1. #1
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    What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Namaste fellow seekers.

    Do we have to admit that everything written by anyone with past associations to Bharath as ‘scripture’? Who gets to call something a smrithi?

    I have difficulty in admitting that Manu smrithi as any kind of scripture – mainly due to the varna system it proposes , and the way it relegates women & vast number of humanity to a position of contempt. There are several such smrithis – Manu’s is just a sample.

    Even the Gnani’s of recent times like Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi , Sri Ramakrishna Parama Hamsa , and several others have categorically denounced such practices. Since their utterances have been well documented in recent times , there has been little chance of revising/restating them , and they are available for everyone to read.

    Is it possible , these spurious scriptures benefit a small subset , and they promote these as scriptures?

    Whenever someone quotes that they can ‘defend varna system’ , or ‘read this script’ , I am saddened by that. I can not even tell them that I have low opinion of those scriptures , lest that I come across as someone thrashing Sanatana Dharma.

    How can we say that we are for ahimsa and hence support vegetarianism, but at the same time support the so called varna system and scriptures that propose pouring of molten lead into the ears of a sudra ?

    Isnt this the reason that Bhuddha shunned Hindusim the way it was practiced then?

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    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Vannakkam Seeker: There are lots of different opinions on this, I'm sure, but I agree with you. If a scripture doesn't make sense to me, especially the ones along the ethical lines, I don't pay much attention. Its kind of like the old, "If your friend told you to jump off a bridge, would you?"

    The ones along philosophical lines, I'm not so sure about, because until we get much more advanced in our sadhanas, there is no way to verify it or not.

    Historically, I have no idea why such things like the Laws of Manu even exist. I've never read it, for the same reason I avoid the news or flip channels when a murder story comes on. It seems like a lot of extra mental dross to have to rid yourself of later. Much of what I've heard sounds absolutely adharmic. Maybe its just there it get people to think.

    Aum Namasivaya

  3. #3

    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Namaste,

    Consistency with shruti is what qualifies it ultimately.

    As far as Manu is concerned, I don't recall reading anything therein that places women in a position of "contempt." There are verses there saying that women should not be independent, that is true. But then there are also verses saying that the happiness of a household is dependent on the happiness of the women who dwell there.

    Obviously, you cannot expect opinions of sages from centuries ago to be in accord with what is considered "politically correct" according to our post-modern culture and values. Our post-modern values are not themselves eternal truths - they are the result of evolving values and have only been in their current form for the last 2-3 decades. We can take it as a given that what is considered "modern" in regards to gender and class relations will continue to change with changing attitudes.

    If it bothers you that the Vedas have a system of classifying people into four different classes and organizing their duties according to said classification, then not much can be done about it. But whether we acknowledge castes or not, they will exist, and people will make up their own classifications either implicitly or explicitly unless they are ordained to do otherwise. The Western world is a perfect example of a society in which caste officially does not exist. In spite of this, socioeconomic classes do exist, are differentiated based on petty things like wealth and political power, and do color our perceptions and interactions within society. Those who are in the highest "classes" are not necessarily those who are virtuous and honorable, unlike the Vedic system in which the people at the "top" may be dirt-poor and yet be rich in austerity and spiritual knowledge. And let's not forget slavery, which existed with official sanction as recently as 130 years ago. And that too in a society which officially declared the equality of all mankind.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Namaste Phil,

    This is not mere political-correctness , and these thought processes havent been going around only in the past 2-3 decades.

    I have read well about Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi , and read sporadically about Ramakrishma Pramahamsa, Vivekanada , Tagore , Shri Narayana Guru .. there is a list. All these evolved beings rejected cast-ism , and saw godliness in women also. Fact of the mater is they saw the creator in every thing , and their ahimsa emanated from this realization.

    I wouldn't sweep it under a broad stroke of 'political correctness'.

  5. #5

    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    Namaste Phil,

    This is not mere political-correctness , and these thought processes havent been going around only in the past 2-3 decades.

    I have read well about Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi , and read sporadically about Ramakrishma Pramahamsa, Vivekanada , Tagore , Shri Narayana Guru .. there is a list. All these evolved beings rejected cast-ism , and saw godliness in women also. Fact of the mater is they saw the creator in every thing , and their ahimsa emanated from this realization.

    I wouldn't sweep it under a broad stroke of 'political correctness'.
    Namaste Seeker,

    A lot of stereotypes about varnaashrama culture are the result of people not practicing it properly, and also of critics judging it according to the standards of Western culture. This is the main reason why the Neo-Hindu thinkers you mentioned really are not very authoritative in their pronouncements about "caste system." The reality is that Hindu leaders of the last 200 years have been profoundly influenced by Western ideas regarding class and gender relations. Please note that while these ideas are influential, they are not practical. The myth of an utopian, enlightened, classless society in the West is precisely that - a myth. It does not exist now and will never exist in the future.

    When you get rid of divinely-ordained castes, you are left with the corrupt social system that we have today, one in which money talks and people with connections get what they want at the expense of those who do not have it. A virtuous sage who is rich with the power of austerity and knowledge will get no recognition or even respect in such a system - unless of course, he has 10,000 followers, a personal webpage, and good prospects for cash-flow.

    Both the Bhaagavata and the Vishnu Puraanas uphold the sanctity of the varnaashrama system (as does the Bhagavad-gita). Yet, these scriptures glorify great devotees who do not come from the stereotypical, male, brahmin background. Indeed, the Vishnu Puraana actually extols the advantages of women and shudras, saying that they have it best in Kali Yuga. Both of these scriptures stress on the redeeming power of bhakti, even for those who lack the advantage of noble birth. And all of this is in spite of the fact that they criticize those who don't follow their varnaashrama duties. Now, what of that?

    To understand varnaashrama dharma, you have to mentally jettison the baggage of Western post-modernism and secular humanism. You have to recognize that respecting varnaashram does not necessarily mean accepting everything that goes on in the name of caste. Above all, you have to understand that varnaashrama is service to the Lord, and this is something I don't think you can accept from a non-devotional worldview.

    When you study any culture, you have to understand that people of that culture may have very different assumptions about the underlying nature of reality. Hence, you have to think as they do, and not merely subject them to an analysis based on your values. People in the West (including people of the East who are influenced by them) value individualism, material education, and the ability to use that education to build a more comfortable lifestyle for one's self. Ancient Hindus, on the other hand, valued duty, devotion to an ideal, and the belief that right actions could lead to emancipation from this world, which they regarded as a place of recurrent suffering. These two sets of assumptions are as different as night and day, and you have to consider that before you try to analyze varnaashrama dharma.

    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  6. #6

    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    Namaste Phil,

    This is not mere political-correctness , and these thought processes havent been going around only in the past 2-3 decades.

    I have read well about Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi , and read sporadically about Ramakrishma Pramahamsa, Vivekanada , Tagore , Shri Narayana Guru .. there is a list. All these evolved beings rejected cast-ism , and saw godliness in women also. Fact of the mater is they saw the creator in every thing , and their ahimsa emanated from this realization.

    I wouldn't sweep it under a broad stroke of 'political correctness'.
    The system of varna does not come from Manu Smriti. It is seen right from the Rig-veda (Purusa Sukta, etc) and then also in the Bhagavad Gita. If Vivekananda, et al., dismiss the concept, then they are essentially disagreeing with the Veda and the Gita and with thousands of years of tradition.

    Caste is a different issue, though often confused with varna, and is not covered in the Manu Smriti.
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    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
    I have difficulty in admitting that Manu smrithi as any kind of scripture – mainly due to the varna system it proposes , and the way it relegates women & vast number of humanity to a position of contempt. There are several such smrithis – Manu’s is just a sample. Even the Gnani’s of recent times like Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi , Sri Ramakrishna Parama Hamsa , and several others have categorically denounced such practices. Since their utterances have been well documented in recent times , there has been little chance of revising/restating them , and they are available for everyone to read.

    Those who support those divisive classifications in current era are, contrary to their own belief, the biggest enemies of Hinduism. Both the exodus of hindus out of Hinduism and the attacks on hindus by outsiders gain legitimacy from the very same divisive tenet nurtured sadly by a few communities. Iam not targeting any one particular community here, for example in telugu region some sudras are equally culpable like the usual others. Proactively all hindus embracing ALL fellow hindus is the only way for the survival of hindu faith in this important millennium.

    That said, change in the mindset has already set in motion the much needed positive trends, and gladly we turned a corner in the last few decades. Explosive surge in intercaste marriage is a testament to that irreversible development. Manu, a kshatriya, during his time may not have advocated or foreseen harassment of any one community , eg., when a carpenter/ cobbleris expected to monopolize a skill/ trade and sell the products for a profit then in that system enough safeguards for his preservation were provided. A soldier was supposed to take a salary and fight in a war and get killed if needed. Also a teacher was supposed to accept only donations and never charge a student a fee to teach/ run his ashram. Here in this latter example clearly the ‘profit’ motive was removed and a selfless seva dharma was exemplified.

    From the contemporary hindu standpoint, both varna and caste are irrelevant. Youth will not listen to any good explanation in its support, they want it out, discarded. All energies must therefore be spent to spread the hindu doctrines and its philosophy clubbed with sadhana. Ignorance is the huge problem with hindus nowadays. But then we must be careful and should not condemn anyone in a targeted manner, let me point out they (the ones who support the varna system ) are also paradoxically victims of the tradition. Kindness along with persuasion are all thats needed and are clearly already working.
    Buddha probably was a reformer to begin with but then he didnt go far enough to qualify to be a hindu, he didnt support vedas and the Brahman/atman concept. He thus left sanatana dharma for good. Namaste.
    Last edited by charitra; 08 July 2012 at 04:52 PM.

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    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Namaste.

    Thanks for everyone's contribution.

    Going back to my original question, can any of you accord the status of 'scripture' to Manu smrithi or something similar?

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    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Namaste Phil,

    You and I are of different persuasions on this. I will not accept any written material just because it was written in times yonder.

    I do not agree in calling someone like Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi as 'neo-hindu thinker'. He doesnt deserve that kind of labeling.

  10. #10

    Re: What qualifies a written work as scripture?

    Namaste Seeker,

    Like it or not, the phenomenon of "Neo-Hinduism" is well-recognized among both traditional Hindu and secular academic scholars. If you do not believe me, feel free to Google the term (also in use includes "Neo-Vedanta" and "Neo-Advaita"). Academics recognize the fact that many new Hindu thinkers have emerged who have broken with the traditions they represent and introduced new ideas borrowed from outside philosophies. Not that they have a problem with this, since, being mostly left-wing types, they like the new secular humanist streak in Neo-Hinduism which is more friendly towards feminism and antagonistic to casteism. But being Hindus, we aren't doing ourselves any favors by pretending that the ideas of Neo-Hindu thinkers correctly represent the Vedic tradition. I am well aware of the fact that this will be a blood-pressure-raising point for many on this forum. But the reality remains that many Neo-Hindu thinkers, for all their talks on what "Hinduism is," don't actually represent all of Hinduism or even most of Hinduism. They represent a distinct category of new Hindu groups who have mixed in modern ideas with (usually) Advaita.

    I also do not accept something as authoritative merely because it was written long time ago. Kama-sutra was written long ago. Nyaya-sutras were written long ago. This does not make them by the very fact, authoritative. Ultimately, contradicting the shruti is a sure fire way of being dismissed when it comes to authoritativeness. However, there is more to it. If a given smRti is referenced in other scriptures of known antiquity, then it follows that the smRti in question is likely authentic. Like it or not, Manu-smRti is referred to in both the bhAgavata purANa and the varAha purANa and has commentaries associated with it. It isn't going to go away merely because we want it to.

    As we have just been informed by Charitra that advocating varnaashrama makes one an "enemy of Hinduism," perhaps the individual who made this comment may wish to consider the point that Rig Veda 10:90 (puruSha-sukta) clearly mentions varnaashrama with its origin story for each of the different varnas. If he/she sees that as "divisive," then would he/she clarify whether she finds the Rig Veda to be an "enemy of Hinduism?"

    While we're on the subject, how do Charitra and others like here feel about the Raamaayana? Therein, varnaashrama is mentioned numerous times, and it is specifically mentioned that our beloved Lord Raama would ensure that people follow their varnaashrama dharma (vAlmIki rAmAyaNa 1.1.96). Is Raamaayana an "enemy of Hinduism?" Is Lord Raama an "enemy of Hinduism?"

    Or how about Bhagavad-gita? Arjuna wanted to renounce his kShatriya duty that would require him to fight with and kill his cousins, but Sri Krishna derided this idea and told Arjuna that following one's own duty is better than adopting the duty of another (see gItA 18.47). Is Bhagavad-gita the enemy of Hinduism?

    Like it or not, varnaashrama is well-integrated into many of our cherished, mainstream scriptures. If you discard the authority of our scriptures, you can hardly expect others (Romila Thapar? Wendy Donniger? other anti-Hindu critics) to respect them.

    regards,
    Last edited by philosoraptor; 09 July 2012 at 08:43 PM.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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