Hi
Thank you for all the responses.
Hi
Thank you for all the responses.
Vanakkam,
Shivafan, really, stop saying great things. The forum don't want me to click the add reputation button now. This is your fault
Anyway, very interesting things here, thank you all for everything. It's a very deep and nice material to think about !
Aum Namah Shivaya !
~Aum Namah Shivaya~
Namaste,
YajvanJi has given an overview of Shaiva Dharma in post 8.
Here is a highlight of VaishNav Dharma.
All four - major schools of VaishNav Dharma appear to have slightly different philosophies, but essentially agree with each other in this :
Hari, VishNu, KRshNa is the Supreme Absolute Truth. All jIva including all dev-devtA are parts and parcels of the Supreme, who expands as paramAtmA (SuperSoul) and accompanies each jiva.
1. Vishishta-advaita of Ramanuja (Shri VaishNav - headed by Shri, Lakshmi)
2. Dvaita, TattvavAd of MadhvArcharya (BrahmA sampraday - headed by BrahmA)
3. Shuddha-advaita of Vishnuswami (rudra sAmpradAy - headed by Rudra)
4. Dvaita-advaita of Nimbarka (KumAr sAmpradAy - headed by saNak-kumAr)
were consolidated in the best way by Lord Chatanya (KRshNa in the internal mood of Radha and external mood of a pure devotee) to give rise to the philosophy of achintya-bheda-abheda (inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference).
The gist is the same, the jivas in their purest form are marginal spiritual energy of the infinite Lord KrshNa. They have a choice to be on the material side or spiritual side of the fence. In the spiritual world, the jiva lives in eternal association of the Lord and His associates.
This thread may help if interested: VaishNav Basics
vasudeva-sutam devam kauMsachANura mardanam
devaki-paranmAnandam kRshNam vande jagadgurum
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
Jai Sri Krishna.
Just a small amendment to the above. I'm not actually sure that all four major schools of Vaishnavism would actually agree that the jIvas are "parts and parcels of the Supreme." The tattvavAdi school of shrI madhvAchArya emphasizes the difference between jIva and paramAtma only while vishishtAdvaita school of shrI rAmAnujachArya describes the jIvas as the sharIra (body) of paramAtma. I'm not entirely sure what "part and parcel" actually means in this context.
I think it would be more accurate, as a general statement on Vaishnavism, to say that the Vaishnava schools agree that the jIvas are dependent entities while paramAtma aka nArAyaNa aka viShNu is the only independent entity.
Also, the above is a sectarian viewpoint common to the Chaitanya tradition only. It is not the case that other Vaishnavas agree with Chaitanya's consolidation of their teachings. In fact, idea of Sri Chaitanya as Sri Krishna Himself is also a unique view of the Chaitanya school.were consolidated in the best way by Lord Chatanya (KRshNa in the internal mood of Radha and external mood of a pure devotee) to give rise to the philosophy of achintya-bheda-abheda (inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference).
regards,
Philosoraptor
"Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato
Jai Shri KRshNa
Thanks, Philosoraptor, for the fine corrections.
What part and parcel means is the jivA is an infinitesimal part of the infinite BhagavAn -Whole. It does not contradict Ramanuja's sharira-sharIrI view where jIva is the outer cover and paramAtmA the inner core. ParamAtmA is smaller than the smallest and larger than the largest.
Except for tattvavAd of Madhvacharya, if you look at what each philosophy boils down to, they end up the same - but with preference for VaikunTha Vs. Golok, and with Ramanuja's defN of kaivalya (not kaivalya of keval-advaita) - which is an option for Shri VaishNav but a no-no for Gaudiyas and MadhvAs.
TattvavAd: jiva-paramAtmA = 2 birds eternally side by side
RamanujAcharya's VishishTAdvaita: jIva-paramAtmA = sharIra-sharIrI
Shuddha-advaita: Everything is KRshNa-transformed and within KRshNa
Nimbarka: VRndAvan is one soul expanded for highest lIlA
All four statements really compliment each other and none contradict, and achintya-bheda-abheda is inclusive of all this.
My intention was not to emphasize on who Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is, but there is a historical narration that Mahaprabhu appeared in the dream of each AchArya and told them his future plan.
He took
1. Philosophical presentation as MadhvAcharya's strength
2. Deity worship from Ramanuja (& Madhva), qualified oneness-yet-difference from Ramanuja
3. Taking shelter of Shri RAdhikA from Nimbarka
4. RAga bhakti (as opposed to prevalent vaidhi bhakti) from Vishnuswami/Vallabhacharya (Pushti marg, shuddha-advaita).
Even if other vaishnav do not believe in this story, the outcome of Chaitanya's teachings show evidence of having picked the best jewels of each school.
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya~
praNAm
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
Namaste Smaranam
Thank you for sharing this very knowledgable background on such subject matter. This is the type of valued insights that really connect the reader into perspectives never shared by so-called scholars of our educational institutes writing on the subjects of Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma.
I found particularly interesting your mention of the Four Schools and how their diversity can find a unity (an amazing nature that seems to always find the light of day in Hinduism) in Chaitanya "consolidated in the best way by Lord Chatanya (KRshNa in the internal mood of Radha and external mood of a pure devotee) to give rise to the philosophy of* achintya-bheda-abheda* (inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference)."
The answers always seem to work their way to the rest of us living in this Kaliyug and somehow as if by grace the nitpicking and infighting of diverse flavors of this very large tent called "Hinduism" by some, still can have a clarion call and means of Unity as if God always finds a way to let us all live in love together and not division.
I remember reading something from yajvan, East = Unity in Diversity, while West is only diversity.
How true that is!
Jai Lord Chaitanya, Who came "just in the nick of time"!
Greetings; I am "Hecatejames (i.e. Hecat-TeJa(s)-A(U)M-Es(a)", of The HINDU-PAGAN Sampradaya.
Namaste. The Supreme Holy Symbol is The Monosyllable: AUM. The AUM is The Monosyllable, because God is One. God, The One, is manifested as The Many; but the very first Primal manifestation of God is as The Trinity: brahmA + vishnU + Mahesh-shiv-shakti = AUM. Now when we say Shiv(a), The Destroyer (i.e.Transformer), you have already indicated The Reverse Mode Form of Vish(nu) The Preserver (i.e. Sustainer); and when we say Vish(nu) The Preserver (i.e. Sustainer), you have already indicated The Reverse Mode Form of Shiv(a) The Destroyer (i.e. Transformer); so that Shiva and Vishnu are quite literally one and the same, is also quite clearly further indicated in Hindu Scriptures where first of all, Vishnu, Himself, actually gives birth to Brahma, and in addition to this.....the same Lord Vishnu, is also hailed and praised as the left half of The Lord Shiva. The giving birth to Lord Brahma is a faculty of The Goddess Shakti, and The Status of Vishnu as also being The Left Half of Shiva, is also a Status of The Goddess Shakti; thus also identifying Lord Vishnu with The Great Devi. These identifying natures clearly indicate that Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu and The Maha Devi are literally One and The Same, but operating in different Divine Sequences for the Divine Purposes of Variety, which is Good and Holy. When one says "ShiV-Shakti," they have indicated Shiva and Shakti, but do you also notice that "VSh (i.e. Vishnu)" is also encoded and embedded within the term? Shiv-Shakti is simply The Brahman in The Divine Mode of Tamas and Vishnu is simply The Brahman in The Divine Mode of Satvas; while Lord Brahma is simply The Brahman in The Divine Mode of Rajas. All are Supremely Holy and Necessary to Balance Each Other. Namaste, Namaste, AUM, Shanti, Shanti.
Namaste
This is all very interesting
Thank you
Dear Smaranam.,
Just one more addition to your nice message...
Part and Parcel is not a literal objective part and parcel! . In fact, Shri Madva's TattvaVada also details this "part and parcel" in terms of "ParaTantra" and "SvaTantra" where the space that the "paraTantra" requires also owned and ruled by "SvaTantra". There is no existence for paraTantra with out the svaTantra's grace!
Also, Vaishnava schools have differences in terms of how they view the Ultimate reality and thus you get different vision or philosophy. Shri Ramanuja sees the "reality" in terms of "relationship", Shri Madhva sees this "reality" in terms of "differences", Vishnuswamin sees the "reality" in terms of "Krshna and His powers" and Nimbarka sees the "reality" in terms of "oneness yet difference"
This is the reason why Shri Chaitanya consolidates and attests that all are arriving at same conclusion which you beautifully said in the first sentences, ie. Shri Vishnu ( So why it is called Vaishavaism).
The Views or philosophies are not same and even some of the conclusion are different due to the basis or view of "reality" for example, the Kaivalya! BrahmaButaGnana, NityaSuris, Taratamya etc.
Part is not broken part of the Bhagavan in any vaishnava school or division of the Whole! Part is either the relationship, the attachment, the substratum, the Shakthi or numerous others which is why it is "inconceivable" or acintya!
I wrote this message just to clarify that, even in the school of Sri Madacharya, the part and parcel concept is there but in disguise and since this school armed itself against the monism, it emphasize very greatly on the "differences" in reality concealing the "relationships".
Hare Krshna!
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