Caste interactions

[lonelyheart]

Namaste,

I am an indian who grew up in US with very old fashioned indian parents. They wanted me to have an arranged marriage with someone from our caste (Kshatriya - sp?). I fell in love with a great guy who was brahimin.

I know marriage within your caste, sub-caste, etc is common in India. But what do the scriptures say about caste? I always saw the system as a way for division of labor in olden times which really doesn't apply any more. Assuming there is more to it.

I have not read much scripture so I am keen to know interpretations from an who know.
As for marriage - only thing I have read is reference to intercaste marriage by Arjuna as a negative thing.

Any opinions, thoughts, suggested readings?

Thanks

[philosoraptor]

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=9782

[wundermonk]

There is a post I made here some time ago.

There are levels of dharma. One of the final levels is based on the concept called atmatusti. ''Here what applies is that in doubtful cases the good person follows what satisfies his heart, his own inner feeling, what he feels driven to.''

''Kumarila says: If a person ceaselessly directs his mind toward the Veda and his mind is purified by this, then what is satisfying to his heart is a yardstick in deciding what dharma is. If someone, over a long time, immerses himself in the Veda and in the knowledge of its contents, his imagination is formed in such a way that it follows the path determined by the Veda and cannot take a wrong turn. That is why it is taught: ‘‘Whatever thought occurs to one who knows the Veda by heart, this is a Vedic thought.’’ Such a thought is Vedic because it is formed from the residue of what is Vedic. Just as everything that grows in the salt mines of Ruma and in the lustrous golden soil of Meru becomes salt and gold, respectively, so it is with the inner condition of one who knows the Veda.

An example of the application of the atmatusti principle occurs in the drama Sakuntala by the poet Kalidasa. King Dusyanta doubts whether Sakuntala, whom he loves, is also suitable for him according to caste so that he could take her as a wife. In the end he decides according to the principle of atmatusti. He feels drawn to Sakuntala – therefore she must be suitable for him according to caste.''

In summary, there is NO mention of CASTE in Sruthi. It is Varna and Varna is not decided by birth/lineage. It is based on gunas which change within one's lifetime. There are many examples of people who have changed their varna within one lifetime. Those who say that these are exceptions to the rule should outline what causes this varna change.

[dhyandev]

I dont know about caste but know that gotra was taken into account for genetic profiling.you should not be related for 6 lineages from mother & father side

[IcyCosmic]

I'm sorry, I'm still not completely solid with the views of the members here. There's still discussion ongoing within my Law of Manu thread.

To me (personally) caste is largely useless and wholly useless in marriage. I don't think you'll be able to explain it to your parents though, unfortunately - unless you can somehow use hinduism.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam lonelyheart: I sincerely wish you the best in resolving this situation, in whichever way possible. My advice would be different than most peoples, as I would suggest divine intervention. Rather than come to a place like HDF, and get a smattering of intellectual opinions, which will most like serve to further confuse the issue, I would suggest you go to a nearby Ganesha temple, and beseech His help. Go on a time when you can sit alone, and mentally spell the 'problem' or situation out at His feet. Buy an archana for this purpose alone. He loves devotees to do that, and will help you in unseen ways. Your parents may soften on their stance, you may see the situation in new lights, etc. etc.

He is also the God we put our attention on when beginning things anew.

But whatever comes of it, I wish you a very happy marriage, and lifetime of dharma.

Aum Namasivaya

[PARAM]

Namaste,

I am an indian who grew up in US with very old fashioned indian parents. They wanted me to have an arranged marriage with someone from our caste (Kshatriya - sp?). I fell in love with a great guy who was brahimin.

I know marriage within your caste, sub-caste, etc is common in India. But what do the scriptures say about caste? I always saw the system as a way for division of labor in olden times which really doesn't apply any more. Assuming there is more to it.

I have not read much scripture so I am keen to know interpretations from an who know.
As for marriage - only thing I have read is reference to intercaste marriage by Arjuna as a negative thing.

Any opinions, thoughts, suggested readings?

Thanks

Scriptures don't talk about any caste based theories, these are made in Kaliyug. There are countless examples in our Itihasa were true followers of Dharma married to others and never break any rule of Dharma.

[charitra]

Since it is a dharma forum I must say in the past many hindu celebrities are a product from varna sankara (corruption of varnas in matrimony). For example in Vyasa of Mahabharata to recently died MS.Subba laxmi, the famous classical singer, hindus have had stellar examples to draw inspiration from. You are lucky that a fellow hindu likes you and he is a great guy as well. I am second guessing your parents think he is not ‘ worthy enough’in material sense, like his educational accomplishments his profession etc., but I maybe wrong. Probe their minds bit more deeper. Please remember parents all over the world want a prince if not a king for their daughters.

In contemporary Indian scene this kind of marriages are a common place of occurrence, that too with the consent of all parents involved!! You will make yourself a laughing stock talking about these divisions that too living in USA and at the age of 33. Present your parents with a stark choice,’ either this fellow hindu man or no marriage’, then they will fall in line. Hindus are a tiny number in the west, sadly a large number of girls remain unmarried because of lack of availability of ‘great guys’. If he fulfills the job description of a good husband ie., to take care of you and your future kids, then you shouldn’t punish yourself or the man. Jump in and get married without delay. My friend and family circle is what I call a melting pot of all varnas and castes, all of them are professionals and well settled all over the world. Namaste.

[philosoraptor]

There are many examples of people who have changed their varna within one lifetime. Those who say that these are exceptions to the rule should outline what causes this varna change.

Pardon me, but shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who feel varNa-switching is common? Because I can only think of a handful of examples of varNa-changing within one lifetime, whereas I can think of many more that do not support it. Vishvaamitra was a kshatriya who became a brahmin after thousands of years of penance. I doubt most people can do thousands of years of penance in this day and age. More to the point, Vishvaamitra's reason for becoming a brahmin was far from noble - he wanted to defeat Vasishtha. Fortunately, through his austerities, he later realized the foolishness of that ambition. Unfortunately, many people who "become brahmins" in this day and age go on to become big, neo-Hindu spiritual leaders who attract followers with wrong teachings. To say nothing of the kind of spiritual havoc that occurs when one of these leaders falls down/becomes degraded/has a scandal.

I think the strength of materialism underscores the need for being raised as a brahmin from an early age rather than aspiring to it.

Frankly, I think that the unhealthy fixation on changing varNas is missing the point. What comes from the feet of the puruSha (i.e. the shUdra-varNa) is still very respectable. And I for one would have no objection to taking the dust from the feet of a shUdra who is a Naaraayana-bhakta.

[wundermonk]

Huh? YOU are the one making the claim that varna is by birth. When asked how then would you explain the fact that the varna of people has changed within one lifetime, you beat around the bush. Are you saying that a sufficient condition to change one's varna is by doing a penance for 1000s of years?