Caste interactions

[philosoraptor]

Pranams,

Huh? YOU are the one making the claim that varna is by birth.

Aren't you misrepresenting the situation just a wee bit? All three major vedAnta commentators have taken this position. I quoted to you shankarAchArya's commentary on the relevant sUtras, but thus far you have not addressed that. Why claim that it is my view if you cannot address the fact that it was the view of AchAryas past?

When asked how then would you explain the fact that the varna of people has changed within one lifetime, you beat around the bush.

No I didn't. I pointed out that the few cases of people changing their varNas were precisely that - few. Meanwhile, you have not responded to the multiple cases I pointed out of people being called by their birth varNa despite their qualities not being those of their varNa. Examples: Duryodhana, Drona, Ashvatthaama, Arjuna, Mucukunda, etc.

Are you saying that a sufficient condition to change one's varna is by doing a penance for 1000s of years?

I'm saying that this is what Vishvaamitra did as revealed in the rAmAyaNa, and that it's not practical for most of us. In any case, it's besides the point. There is no directive for us to change our varNas, and that seems to be the point you are still wrestling with. We are all enjoined to do our respective duties as a sacrifice to Him, the puruSha who is the support of us all.

regards,

[PARAM]

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You are trying to disrupt this thread, creator wants an answer and not conflict of caste.

You are taking up Vishvamitra more seriously, but when he was rejected? Brahamgyan is a must for Brahamrishi and cannot be received without penance. Vishvamitra's sister was married to Brahmin, who objected this? Even in Mahabharata Pandavs went to Draupadi's svyamvar in disguise of Brahmin, who said they can't marry a kShatriya girl? Bheema married Asura girl Hidimba, who objected?

[philosoraptor]

You are trying to disrupt this thread, creator wants an answer and not conflict of caste.

You are taking up Vishvamitra more seriously, but when he was rejected? Brahamgyan is a must for Brahamrishi and cannot be received without penance. Vishvamitra's sister was married to Brahmin, who objected this? Even in Mahabharata Pandavs went to Draupadi's svyamvar in disguise of Brahmin, who said they can't marry a kShatriya girl? Bheema married Asura girl Hidimba, who objected?

Namaste Param,

I'd have more motivation to answer your rejoinders if you made it a point to respond to what I actually wrote, rather than to a series of strawmen.

regards,

[sanjaya]

Namaste,

I am an indian who grew up in US with very old fashioned indian parents. They wanted me to have an arranged marriage with someone from our caste (Kshatriya - sp?). I fell in love with a great guy who was brahimin.

I know marriage within your caste, sub-caste, etc is common in India. But what do the scriptures say about caste? I always saw the system as a way for division of labor in olden times which really doesn't apply any more. Assuming there is more to it.

I have not read much scripture so I am keen to know interpretations from an who know.
As for marriage - only thing I have read is reference to intercaste marriage by Arjuna as a negative thing.

Any opinions, thoughts, suggested readings?

Thanks

Well I don't have anything terribly useful to say. But I do want to say that as a fellow ABCD with parents who are hardcore about tradition (with regard to caste, and sadly almost no other part of Hinduism), I can understand your dilemma here. On the one hand we all want to hold on to Hinduism as our primary connection to Indian culture, but on the other we've grown up in a country where people do things very differently. It's hard to get used to the stark contrast of life inside and outside the family.

I guess the only useful thing I do have to say is you should bear in mind that being faithful to Hinduism doesn't necessarily equate with doing what your parents say. No offense to my own mom and dad (who've done a great job of raising Indian kids in America, I think). But despite being Brahmin they are a long way off from being Hindu scholars. As I study Hinduism more on my own I've found that a couple of the things they taught me, especially about caste, are not quite accurate. And really, I think that making your Hindu faith your own is more important to your parents than simply doing as you're told, right?

[hesh86]

Where do I start with caste system? I have debated so much about this with secularists and non-Hindus, but they always fall on deaf ears.

If I say that Jati bheda is intrinsic to Hinduism, I would be wrong. But if I say that varnashram did not give rise to Jati bheda I would be wrong also.

Varnashram may have been an old fashioned way of division of labor, but there was more to it.

Clearly, there is no reference to the vedas advocating for jati bheda. If anything, there are shlokas that seem to unite the four varnas.

Yajurved 18.48:
O Lord! Provide enlightenment/ compassion to our Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. Provide me also with the same enlightenment so that I can see the truth.
Yajurved 20.17:
Whatever crime we have committed against my village, forest or committee; whatever crime we have committed through our organs, whatever crime we have committed against Shudras and Vaishyas, whatever crime we have done in matters of Dharma, kindly forgive us relieve us from the tendency of the same.
Yajurved 26.2:
The way I gave this knowledge of Vedas for benefit of all humans, similarly you all also propagate the same for benefit of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Shudras, Vaishyas, Women and even most downtrodden. The scholars and the wealthy people should ensure that they not deviate from this message of mine.
Atharvaved 19.32.8:
O Lord! May I be loved by everyone – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra or Vaishya. May I be admired by everyone.

There are others I can't seem to find, sorry.

In fact, the Mahabharat clearly mentions that varna is not by birth.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03179.htm#fn_41

The fact that we have had people like Sankara write beautiful texts like the Maneesha Panchakam to show that there is actually no real difference between a brahmin and chandala shows that there was the ideology of equivalence present back then. There were innumerable dalit and sudra saints. Basava and arya samaj actively condemned jati bheda, whereas Vivekananda has written extensively on why varnashram as an imposed system, rather than a factual organization of a successful society, is dangerous.

Of course Ambedkarists don't get it. Because Ambedkar was of the view that the only way to get rid of caste system is to get rid of Hinduism itself! You don't like Eugenics, so stop teaching Darwinian evolution! Varnashram is seen in every successful society and I would like to see any society that doesn't.

Of course there are Ambedkarvadis and Marxist fools like these
http://nirmukta.com/2012/07/16/hindu...#comment-42584
who just don't seem to get over the point that we Hindus don't care much for caste anymore, except (unfortunately) in marriage. Of course, that is changing. This was born out of scriptures like Manu Smriti, yes. The question is, is Manu Smriti a 'Hindu' scripture per se or was it a codified lawbook of ancient times. A close inspection will reveal that it is the latter rather than the former.

I hope it works out for you. Try to convince your parents otherwise. Heck, I convinced my parents I wanted to marry a white Christian (and I am obviously not!)

[lonelyheart]

Wow. I guess it is a real debated hot topic.

Thank you for all the responses. Some were definitely beyond my grasp but as I am starting to study more about hinduism, hopefully I'll understand more soon.

Just FYI to those who were wishing me well - this issue with my parents is not current. I did end up marrying my love without my parent's permission almost 10 years ago and eventually my parents reconciled with us and all is well now.

I think sanjaya understood it perfectly - this was not a religious battle with my parents. They are god-fearing and follow hinduism but are far from truly understanding the religion. It was a cultural issue. In their mind of proper behavior - marrying outside caste is just not something you do.

It has just been one of those things that stuck in my head from a traumatc experience of leaving my parents over this difference. And I just recently started studying hinduism and found this forum so I thought I was ask how it related to the true essence of hinduism.

Thank you all for your input.

[Eastern Mind]

Wow. I guess it is a real debated hot topic.

Just FYI to those who were wishing me well - this issue with my parents is not current. I did end up marrying my love without my parent's permission almost 10 years ago and eventually my parents reconciled with us and all is well now.

Vannakkam: I'm glad it worked out ... for you, for your parents. Certainly you are not alone in the situation. Many have done similar, and not just with Hindus going 'outside' their cultural. My uncle, a die-hard Brit, married a Ukrainian girl some 65 years ago, and both sides made a stink, or so my father related to me. The wedding was almost called off. In fact there was a time marrying someone from the next village over would be scandalous.

As for the topic being hotly debated, this is true only for some people. Others have moved on and see the world more as a global family.

Aum Namasivaya