Law of Manu - Caste System

[IcyCosmic]

Can someone please explain to me how literal the caste system teachings were in the Law of Manu and was the (man-made caste system as is) meant to be delplyed in Kal Yuga; if not what were the motives behind the text found in Manu. Thankyou

[yajvan]

　
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Please consider the following... from parāśara smṛti :


" All laws arose in the krita age ; all have vanished in the kali age. Expound a part of the rules of conduct fit for the four castes, such as are common (to all).
" In conformity to the character of the age, the rules of law (suitable) for men differ from age to age. The rules for the Krita differ from the treta rules ; the dvapara laws are not identical with the Kali rules`

" For the krita are suited the laws of manu ; for the Treta, thoseby Gautama (are) prescribed ; for the dvapara those by shank and likhita ; for the kali, those by parāśara are prescribed"


praṇām

[philosoraptor]

pranams,

yajvan, thanks for this. Can you give the exact verse numbers in which these statements are found? I also remember hearing that the Paraashara Smriti says this. Now that I've seen it come up again, I'm going to put priority on obtaining a copy.

I still find it odd that any smriti for any age would speak of pouring molten wax in the ears of a shuudra. It seems highly unlikely that people in the Treta Yuga were any more likely to give Vedic knowledge to shuudras than people of the Kali Yuga.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

　
Please consider the following... from parāśara smṛti :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24567432/Parashara-Smriti


praṇām

[dhyandev]

Three allegations on Manu Smriti
There are 3 major allegations on Manu Smriti:
1. Manu founded the caste-system based on birth.
2. Manu legalized harsh punishments for Shudras and special provisions for upper-castes and especially Brahmins.
3. Manu was anti-women and condemned them. He accorded inferior rights to women.
Let us now review these allegations using evidences from Manu Smriti itself.
In this article, we shall review the first allegation � that Manu was founder of birth-based caste system.
We would strongly recommend that the readers review our series on Caste System in Vedas to understand the context and definitions of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra as per Vedas. Please review the series at http://agniveer.com/series/caste-system-3/
Manu Smriti and Caste System
1. Manu Smriti hails from an era when even the concept of birth-based caste system did not exist. Thus Manu Smriti nowhere supports a social system based on birth. Maharshi Manu took inspiration from Vedas (refer Rigveda 10.10.11-12, Yajurveda 31.10-11, Atharvaveda 19.6.5-6) and proposed a social system based on qualities, actions and nature of the individual.

2. This is called Varna System. Now the very word Varna derived from root word �Vrinja� means �Choice�. A similar usage happens in common used word �Varan� meaning �choosing� or �Var� meaning a husband chosen by the girl. This also shows that in Vedic system the girl had complete rights to choose her husband.

3. The biggest proof of Manu Smriti proposing Varna System and NOT Caste System is that in the first Chapter of Manu Smriti, there is mention of origin of 4 Varnas and no mention of castes or gotras. Had caste or gotra been important, Manu would have mentioned which castes belong to Brahmins, which to Kshatriyas, which to Vaishyas and which to Shudras.
This also means that those who feel proud in calling themselves Brahmins or upper-caste by birth have no evidence to prove so. They can at best prove that a few generations of their forefathers used to also call themselves upper-caste. But there is no way to prove that they were upper-castes since inception of civilization. And when they cannot prove so, what right do they have to allege that a so-called birth-based Shudra was also not a Brahmin several generations ago? And that they themselves were not Shudras a few generation ago!

4. In fact Manu Smriti 3.109 clearly states that one who eats by glorifying his Gotra or Family is considered an eater of his own vomit. Thus, as per the Manu Smriti that the self-proclaimed birth-based Brahmins or upper-castes believe in, the very act of glorifying their lineage or gotra to demand special privileges makes them deserving of condemnation.

5. Manu Smriti 2.136 states that one earns respect due to wealth, company, age, actions and knowledge in increasing order. There is no mention of family, gotra, caste, lineage and other non-factors to demand or earn respect.

Migration within Varnas
6. Manu Smriti 10.65 asserts that Brahmin can become Shudra and Shudra can become Brahmin. Similarly Kshtariyas and Vaishyas can also change their Varnas.

7. Manu Smriti 9.335: If a Shudra (uneducated) serves the educated ones, is polite, devoid of ego and stays in respectful company of knowledgeable ones, he/ she is considered as having a noble birth and stature.

8. There are several shlokas in Manusmriti that state that a person belonging to high Varna falls down to level of a Shudra (uneducated) if he does not conduct noble deeds. For example,
2.104: A person who does not worship the Supreme Lord twice daily should be considered a Shudra.

2.172. He who has not been initiated with teaching of the Vedas is a Sudra.
4.245: A Brahmin acquires brilliance through company of noble persons and avoiding bad company. On contrary, if he indulges in bad company, he becomes a Shudra.
Thus clearly, Brahmin refers to a scholarly person who conducts noble deeds. And Shudra refers to an uneducated person. This has nothing to do with birth in any manner.
2.168: A Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya who puts efforts in other areas except understanding and following the Vedic precepts becomes a Shudra and his future generations also suffer from ignorance of Vedas.
Thus, as per Manu Smriti, almost the entire population of India today, barring few exceptions, is Shudra because we do not abide by the Vedic concepts and are indulged in anti-Vedic activities � corruption, casteism, selfishness, superstitions, irrationality, gender-discrimination, sycophancy, immorality etc.
2.126: Even if he is a Brahmin otherwise, a person who does not politely respond to a greeting is actually a Shudra (uneducated person).

Even Shudras can teach
9. Though Shudra means an uneducated person, a Shudra can also become a teacher for specific knowledge that he has. For example,
2.238: One should acquire knowledge even from a person born in a low family otherwise. Similarly, one should accept a noble woman as wife even if her family is otherwise not up to mark.
2.241. If needed, one may acquire knowledge from one who is not a Brahmin; and that he shall follow and serve such a teacher, as long as the instruction lasts.

Status of Brahmin is acquired by deeds and not by name
10. As per Manu Smriti, one has to earn the qualification of Brahmin. During childhood, parents are supposed to send their children for specialized education of Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya depending on observed nature of children. So many Brahmin parents may desire that their children also become Brahmins. However that is not sufficient. One becomes Brahmin only if he completes the education and not merely by taking birth in a Brahmin family or taking admission in Brahmin course of a gurukul.
2.157: A Brahmin devoid of education is equivalent to an elephant made of wood or a deer made of leather. They are merely namesake and not real.
2.28: The body is made fit to be called Brahmin only through study of scriptures, discipline, noble selfless deeds, study of duties, science and meditation, charity and goal oriented actions.

Education is true birth
11. As per Manu, actual birth happens after completion of education. All human beings are Shudras or uneducated when born. Those who complete their education are supposed to have a new birth. Thus they are called Dwija or Twice Born. Those who were unable to complete the education remain Shudra. This has nothing to do with birth or heredity. This is pure meritocracy.
2.148: When a teacher who is well-versed in Vedas teaches a student the science of Gayatri (that summarizes all principles of Vedas and rational living), then the actual birth of the student takes place. This birth is free from risks of death or destruction and leads the student to immortality.
Thus, forget about being a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya, one is not considered even a human unless he/she receives education.
2.146: The teacher who provides education is a father who is much greater than the father who gave birth. The knowledge provided by the teacher remains with the soul even after the death and leads him to immortality. But the body provided by father destroys when death comes.
2.147: The birth that happens from womb of mother after parents desire for procreation is an ordinary birth. Real birth happens when the person completes his education.
Thus, citing lineage to showcase casteist superiority is an extremely foolish act as per Manu Smriti. Instead of quoting the clan, one becomes superior by showcasing that he is more educated.
10.4: Brahmin, Kashtriya and Vaishya take second birth after education. Shudra who could not complete education is fourth Varna. There is no fifth Varna among Arya or noble people.
This also means that merely because a person did not complete education does not make him a villain. He is still regarded as a noble person if his deeds are noble.
And if he completes the education, he can become a Dwija as well. Thus Shudra is an adjective and NOT a nomenclature for any castes.
Never insult anyone born in lower family
12. To further ensure that one is not insulted or denied opportunities merely because he/she was born in a family where others did not excel in education, wealth or other parameters of success in society, Maharshi Manu laid the rule very clearly:
4.141: Never deny respect and/or rights to a person who is handicapped, uneducated, aged, not handsome, not wealthy or coming from a lower family. These are NOT the parameters to judge a person.

Examples of Varna migration in ancient history
13. The concept of Varnas � Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra � being merit based and NOT birth based is not merely a theoretical concept. It was practiced in ancient era. The greatest misery befell on us when our misguided ancestors converted this scientific meritocracy into a foolish birth-based system causing all the miseries we face today.
Here are some examples:
a. Aitareya Rishi was son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understand Rigveda.
b. Ailush Rishi was son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)
c. Satyakaam Jaabaal was son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.
d. Prishadh was son of King Daksha but became a Shudra. Further he did Tapasya to achieve salvation after repenting. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.14)
Had Tapasya been banned for Shudra as per the fake story from Uttar Ramayan, how could Prishadh do so?
e. Nabhag, son of King Nedishtha became Vaishya. Many of his sons again became Kshatriya. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.13)
f. Dhrist was son of Nabhag (Vaishya) but became Brahmin and his son became Kshatriya (VP 4.2.2)
g. Further in his generation, some became Brahmin again (VP 9.2.23)
h. As per Bhagvat, Agniveshya became Brahmin though born to a king.
i. Rathotar born in Kshatriya family became a Brahmin as per Vishnu Puran and Bhagvat.
j. Haarit became Brahmin though born to Kshatriya (VP 4.3.5)
k. Shaunak became Brahmin though born in Kshatriya family. (VP 4.8.1). In fact, as per Vayu Puran, Vishnu Puran and Harivansh Puran, sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas.
Similar examples exist of Gritsamad, Veethavya and Vritsamati.
l. Matanga was son of Chandal but became a Brahmin. (Mahabharat Anushasan Parva Chapter 3)
m. Raavan was born from Pulatsya Rishi but became a Rakshas.
n. Pravriddha was son of Raghu King but became a Rakshas.
o. Trishanku was a king but became a Chandal.
p. Sons of Vishwamitra became Shudra. Vishwamitra himself was a Kshatriya who later became a Brahmin.
q. Vidur was son of a servant but became a Brahmin and minister of Hastinapur empire.
r. Vatsa became a Rishi though born to a Shudra (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)
s. Many verses of adulterated Manu Smriti (10.43-44) state that certain castes were earlier Kshtariya but became Shudra later. These verses are adulterated but prove that concept of Varna migration did exist. The castes mentioned are: Paundrak, Audru, Dravid, Kamboj, Yavan, Shak, Parad, Palhava, Cheen, Kirat, Darad, Khash.
t. Mahabharat Anushasana Parva 35.17-18 adds the following to above list: Mekal, Laat, Kanvashira, Shaundik, Daarva, Chaur, Shabar, Barbar.
u. Several gotras are common across Brahmins, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Dalits implying that all of them hailed from same family but rather got entrapped in the stupid casteism.

Respect for Shudras
14. Manu was a great humanitarian. He knew that not all Shudras miss their education deliberately. He also understood that just because one ignored education in early part of his life does not mean that he should be penalized for that mistake for entire life. Thus he ensured that even Shudras get their due respect in society. Thus he never used any insulting adjective for Shudras. On contrary their are several instances of Manu using respectful adjectives for Shudras.
Being vulnerable due to lack of education, Shudras deserve greater sensitivity in treatment from rest of the society as per Manu. We have seen some examples of these earlier.
Here are some more:
3.112: If a Shudra or Vaishya comes as a guest, the family should feed him with due respect.
3.116: A householder should eat from remaining food only after he has fed the scholars and servants (Shudras) to their satisfaction.
2.137: A very old Shudra deserves more respect than anyone else regardless of their wealth, company, age, actions or knowledge. This special provision is accorded only to Shudra.

Vedas are foundation of Manu Smriti
15. No text apart from Vedas is free from potential for interpolations. To understand why Vedas are immune to tampering, please review http://agniveer.com/2697/why-vedas-cannot-be-changed/
That is why Vedas are accorded such high importance in our culture. Vedas form the foundation of everything else and hence if Vedas are conserved, other texts can be derived by seers in future as well.
16. Thus the benchmark for interpreting any other scriptural text is the Vedas. They are to be interpreted and accepted only to extent they comply with Vedas. This is true for ALL texts including Smritis, Brahmans, Mahabharat, Ramayan, Geeta, Upanishads, Ayurveda, Neeti Shastra, Darshans etc.
17. Manu himself announces in the Manu Smriti that Vedas alone form the foundation of Dharma. Refer 2.8-2.11
(Manu 2.8: A learned man after fully scrutinising all this with the eye of knowledge, should, in accordance with the authority of the Vedas, intent on the performance of his duties.)
Thus, it becomes clear that Manu Smriti has to be interpreted ONLY in lines with Vedas.

Shudras have right to study Vedas and conduct Vedic rituals
18. Vedas very clearly provide right to Shudras (and women) � in fact entire humanity � to study Vedas and conduct Vedic rituals like Yajna. Refer Yajurveda 26.1, Rigveda 10.53.4, Nirukta 3.8 etc. Also refer our series on Vedic Caste System at http://agniveer.com/series/caste-system-3/
Thus Manu Smriti also supports the same Vedic truth. That is why nowhere in the context of Upanayan (education initiation) does Manu forbid Upanayan or sacred thread for Shudras. On contrary, one who refuses to accept Sacred Thread of education is called a Shudra!
19. In lines with Vedas, Manu also orders the ruler to ensure that the salary and perks of Shudras be never reduced in any circumstance. (7.125-126, 8.216)

Summary:
To summarize, the assumption of Manu formulating a birth-based caste system is baseless. On contrary, Manu Smriti is vehemently against any reference to family or birth to judge a person. The Varna system of Manu is a pure meritocracy.
Each human has all the 4 Varnas � Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra. Manu attempted to organize the predominant Varna of each individual in social context in a manner that aids individual and collective uplift.
We shall review the other two allegations on Manu prescribing harsh punishments for Shudras and preferential treatment for Brahmins; and being anti-woman in subsequent articles.
But we would like to conclude this part from what Manu himself said about fraud and wrong practices.
He says in 4.30 that frauds, wrong practices, deceit, perversion and falsehood should not be respected even by words.
Caste system based on birth is one of the most disgusting fraudulent deceitful perverted and false practices to exist among civilized human beings. And thus, as per Manu and as per Vedas, one should work to destroy this criminal practice by all means � harshest words and strongest actions. To show soft corner to birth-based caste system even in words is against Manu.


sourcehttp://agniveer.com/manu-smriti-and-shudras/

[IcyCosmic]

If the caste system was not meant to be utilized why has it taken so long and still as in issue? There are priests in India who hate untouchables, why are there no learned hindu scholars bringing this information to the forefront?
P.S. Out of curiosity, I'm a sood. What caste would I be?
EDIT : Nvm, warriors according to my mum.

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friend,

The main reason for this topic being brought up time and again, is
- the lack of clarity due to improper research
- and half knowledge based self proclaimed intellectual idiots who preach illogical personal opinions for personal gain....

Please note this will be a long post as clarifying this point required lot of
explanation

Lets answer the following questions
- What is the background for the "Varna or so called caste" system?
- Who created this system?
- On what basis?
- Who is the creator of this design?
- Does this mean He actually points out which individual goes where?
- So, what are the varnas and properties of every varna?
- What will be the types of Karma possible by a particular Varna and why?
- Does a hierarchy[superiority and inferiority] exist in the system?
- Is attaing any particular "Varna" the final goal?

Sri Krishna, in Bhagavad Gita, provides complete clarity on this over hyped topic of the day, in a very simple and easily understandable manner....lets try to understand His beautiful words with a simple example....

Example:
Consider a class of 100 students who have joined a school...All the 100 students are put into a single classroom...
at this point each and every student has the same set of teachers,
each and every student gets equal amount of knowledge from the teachers,
each and every student is equally taught,
each and every student gets the same syllabus and text books,
each and every student is made aware of an exam at the "end" and each and every student knows that there will be an exam
each and every student is equally also thought how to study and prepare for the exam
and each and every student gets the same question paper for the final exam....

now among the 100 students,

- 10 of them are very attentive in class, they control themselves, give up other unwanted activities and study hard, they understand the concepts and write the exam really well.....
- 15 of them are almost attentive in class, they study well, in fact they do not understand the concepts instead learn them by heart and write the exams fairly well.....
- 20 of them are usually not attentive in class, on the night before exam, they study hard, try to learn somethings by heart and with very high difficulty manage to complete the exam paper.....
- 25 of them are not at all attentive, they never care about studying and are too lazy to work hard and over the top they, somehow by hook or crook, write the exam......
- the remaining 30 are not at all attentive, they don't care about studying and have absolutely no understood about anything and hence, do very badly in the exams......

Once the results of the exams(after a proper evaluation of papers by an unbiased teacher) are announced, for obvious reasons the first set of 10 get more than 90% and get into a top college, the second 15 get between 75% - 90% get into a very good college, the third set of 20 get between 40%-75% get into a good college, the fourth set of 25 with great difficulty manage to pass and get into a ordinary college and where as the last set are unable to clear the exam and stay at home.(lets forget today's scenario of bribing and influential admissions)

Now one thing must be very very clearly noted, "any student", it does not matter how good marks they scored in the previous exams, it does not matter how excellent they were in the school, if they do not really work hard, study and understand the concepts in the next stage, they will not be able to get good marks in the college....just because they did well in the previous
class does not make them automatically get good marks in the future....doing well in the previous class only allowed them to understand the concepts better which will be needed in the future...

...and "any student"(even the ones who did not clear), it does not matter what kind of low graded college they are currently in, they can still study really hard, put maximum efforts and get good marks, gain knowledge and get into higher education, and their previous exams will Never matter at all.....

So, lets now understand Sri Vaasudevas words...
- What is the background for the "Varna" system?

Sri Vaasudeva says 18.40

na tad asti prithivyam va
divi devesu va punah
sattvam prakriti-jair muktam
yad ebhih syat tribhir gunaih

"There is no being existing, either here or among the demigods in the higher planetary systems, which is freed from these three gunas born of prakruthi."

- Who created this system?

Sri Paramapurusha says 4.13

catur-varnyam maya srstam

The four Varnas are created by Me....

- On what basis?

guna-karma-vibhagasah

ONLY based on guna-karma....what does this mean...
The gunas are of three kinds...Saatvika, Raajasika, Taamasa...
Saatvika being better of the other two is enlightening, raajasika drags one back to ichcha-dwesha dwandwa[like-dislike duality],
Taamasa leads one to ignorance...

The karmas are also categorised based on gunas,...hence there is saatvika karma, raajasika and taamasa karma...

So, only based on the guna and karma, the varna is decided....comparing it with our school example, only based on the way a student studies through out the year[on which guna, a Jeeva conditions itself through out the Janma] and on the way a student performs in the exams[on what types of karma a Jeeva does], does a student land in a particular college where again knowledge can be gained[only does a Jeeva land into a particular varna to continue to pursuit of gaining knowledge]

For more information on types of karma please refer to this reply http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...35&postcount=5

- Who is the creator of this design?
tasya kartaram api mam...I am the one who has designed this system

- Does this mean He actually points out which individual goes where?

Sri Vaasudeva beautifully answers in the next line..4.13

viddhy akartaram avyayam

Understand that the Avyaya or Paramathma is not the one who actually pushes anyone anywhere...

what does this mean...Lets get back to our school example..Consider a Government which accredits the schools and colleges...its the Government which is the one which accredits and classifies the schools into different grades[A grade colleges, B grade colleges, etc], but its definitely NOT the Government which performs "the action" of assigning students to particular category college...its completely dependent upon the students hard work and the exam result which allows the student to enter a particular college...its entirely depends on the efforts of the student... hence, Government is the no-doer in sending a particular student into particular college...Similarly, Paramathma is creator of the varna...He has given knowledge about gunas, its left to individual Jeevas to apply efforts..

thus Paramathma is the no-doer of sending someone into a particular varna...
Also Paramathma created different varnas only because its the Jeevas who have created the necessity for such a system..
Government classifies and gives permissions to some lower colleges only because not every student gets
great marks to enter a difficult reputed college...Hence He is akartha and kartha....

- So, what are the varnas and properties of every varna?

Similar to the 100 students at school, all treated equally in every aspect,
everyone studies in the same school, under same teacher and studies the same syllabus and gets the same question paper....
Every Jeeva enters the Prakruthi and every Jeeva gets the right knowledge without any bias at the beginning of its travel...
Some Jeevas simply follow the dharma, do not get into the bewildered mode of illusionary state...and try hard to adher to dharma....
at the very beginning of every Jeeva's trip into prakruthi, when life comes into existence, every Jeeva that comes to existence inside the prakruthi is taught about the reality, everyone gets equal amount of knowledge about Him...everyone is very well informed regarding what is dharma and what is adharma......but every Jeeva, unable to make sure saatvika guna
override the other two, become the slaves of raajasika and taamasa gunas....loose control over mind....and thus
start to commit mistakes...and not follow dharma....

Sri Garudadwaja says 18.41

brahmana-kshatriya-visam
shudranam ca parantapa
karmani pravibhaktani
svabhava-prabhavair gunaih

Please understand this statement very very carefully...
Its the "karma" which divides or categorises a Jeeva into Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras
The "Svabhava" or the Nature of the Jeeva or the features or characteristics of the Jeevas are influenced by the guna in which they were previously conditioned...
Its the results of the exams which classifies or divides the students to particular colleges...
Its the way they studied though out the year that determines the knowledge present in them...

- What will be the types of Karma possible by a particular Varna and why?
18.42

samo damas tapah shaucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam

Those Jivas who have conditioned themselves with whatever gunas in the previous janma, will accordingly have the following features

peacefulness(does not harm others for food, pleasure or enmity),
has self-control(mind and senses), who always performs tapas(mind, speech and body),
who is pure(inner and outer), who is tolerant(even with the enemies and evil people),
honest(according to dharma), has knowledge(about materialistic duty),
has wisdom(about real knowledge) and is religiousness(follows dharma)
where in all the above are born out of their svabhava...which is a collective conditioning of prvious janmas are "Bramhanas"


18.43
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam ishvara-bhavas ca
kshatram karma svabhava-jam

Those Jivas who have conditioned themselves with whatever gunas in the previous janma, will accordingly have the following
features
will power(to fight against enemies),
has virtue to protect the law,
has determination in making sure he protects others,
even if he needs to give up his life,who shows courage and strength in battle,
who is generous and does daana with whatever extra he possesses and has qualities of a leader,
where in all the above are born out of their svabhava...which is a collective conditioning of previous janmas are "Kshatriyas"

18.44

krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam
vaishya-karma svabhava-jam

Those Jivas who have conditioned themselves with whatever gunas in the previous janma, will accordingly have the following
features
doing business lawfully,
trades goods with minimum profit,
without cheating people provides the commodities required,
does not amass wealth more than required,
where in all the above are born out of their svabhava...which is a collective conditioning of previous janmas are "Vaishyas"

18.44

paricaryatmakam karma
shudrasyapi svabhava-jam

Those Jivas who have conditioned themselves with whatever gunas in the previoius janma, will accordingly have the following
features
physical strength to serve others,
to entertain others,
to help others,
to support others, without gaining wealth more than required,
where in all the above are born out of their svabhava...which is a collective conditioning of previous janmas are "Shudras"

- Does a hierarchy[superiority and inferiority] exist in the system?

The hierarchy exists only in terms of gunas and the karma....
A bramhana doing a saatvika karma of teaching without discrimination and expectation is equal to a kshatriya doing a saatvika karma of fighting a war without conspiracy is equal to a vaishya doing a saatvika karma of doing a fair business without cheating is equal to a shudra doing a saatvika karma of helping others without greedy desires

its the guna and the karma which matters...not the varna....
At the end of the first janma of every Jeeva, based on the "karma" and the "guna" on which the Jeeva was conditioned, the Jeeva takes up birth
in a Varna which it deserves....what really matters is how each and every individual Jeeva fares in the current birth as this will define the future of this Jeeva....

- Is attaing any particular "Varna" the final goal?

DEFINITELY NOT...its Attaining Him which is the final goal for every Jeeva...
an animal, an out caste, a shudra, a vaishya, a kshatriya, a bramhana can only reach Him if they act properly in the current birth, never only by just taking birth in any particular category......if their deeds are bad in this present life, they again take birth in one or the other category based on the deeds performed in this birth....
and one keeps on taking birth again and again until one reaches Him....

[philosoraptor]

These arguments have already been addressed here.

Basically, the varNa system was a birth-based system. Specifically, by one's guNa and karma from a previous birth, one gets the birth in the next life appropriate to it. Then he or she is expected to take up the duties and disposition associated with that varNa, without which he or she belongs to that varNa in name only.

There were a few instances in which one changed varNa from that of his birth, but these were the exceptions to the rule, and mostly occurred between kShatriya and brAhmaNa varNas, which indicates that the boundy between them may have been somewhat fluid at one point. In this category of course, is Vishvaamitra (who, by the way, was not accepted as a brahmin by Vasishtha despite already performing austerities and then endeavoring to perform a yagna for King Trishanku... he only got the designation of brahmaRishi after Lord Brahma himself granted it following thousands of years of penance).

On the other hand, there were many more instances in which a person was known by his birth-varNa despite having lower or higher qualities.

1) Arjuna wanted to renounce his kShatriya duties and take up a brahmin's duties - he was qualified for this, having performed austerities for years in vanavasam, but it was not accepted by Sri Krishna.

2) Duryodhana and his Kaurava brothers were all known as kshatriyas despite their wickedness.

3) Karna was not accepted as a kshatriya because he was raised by non-kshatriya parents - Arjuna's protesting of his presence in the arena due to a non-kshatriya lineage led to a decades-long grudge between the two.

4) Mucukunda was a king who had the direct vision of Sri Krishna - he was granted a chance to become a brahmin in his next birth but was not immediately transformed into a brahmin despite his piety and devotion.

5) Drona and Ashvatthaama were brahmins by birth and were known as such despite their predisposition to the fighting arts.

6) Ashvatthaama was known as a brahmin despite his murdering of the sons of the Paandavas - his life was specifically spared on this account.

7) Satyakaama was asked his gotra by Gautama prior to initiation. Since gotra is a hereditary designation, this indicates that the hereditary lineage was a prerequisite for study of the Veda. Note that, Sri Shankara, Sri Ramanuja, and Sri Madhva each quote this story to illustrate the point that a shuudra is not entitled to study of the Veda. They do NOT interpret it as meaning that the lineage does not matter, only that Gautama had ascertained that the lineage was brahminical.

8) Shvetaketu is told by his father to accept a guru and study the Veda because they are brahmins and this is their duty; he is specifically told that he should not neglect this and be a brahmin in name only.

There are so many other examples to illustrate the point that birth generally lead to one's varNa classification, and very few examples suggesting otherwise. We need to get out of this politically-correct idea that birth-based class system is inherently evil. No doubt, it has been corrupted, but such is the case with class systems everywhere - there is no classless system anywhere, nor will there ever be. If divinely ordained classes and the duties assigned to them are not accepted, then people will accept implicit class designations based on materialistic traits instead of true virtues. Thus, we have the crazy system we have today where Hindus earn advanced professional degrees, make money in big companies, and think themselves better than the sincere sages whose only wealth is their austerity. This is also a corruption of the true system.

regards,

[dhyandev]

Basically, the varNa system was a birth-based system. Specifically, by one's guNa and karma from a previous birth, one gets the birth in the next life appropriate to it.

Worth, not birth, decides your position on this earth'
people see this episode & shut ur shrimukhs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hehP...layer_embedded
The Sutradhar quoted a mantra from Rigveda in above episode. The same is given hereunder:

कारुरहं ततो भिषगुपलप्रक्षिणी नना। नानाधियो वसूयवोऽनु गा इव तस्थिमेन्द्रायेन्दो परिस्रव॥ [- ऋग्वेद ९.११२.३]

kārurahaṁ tato bhiṣagupalaprakṣiṇī nanā| nānādhiyo vasūyavo'nu gā iva tasthimendrāyendo parisrava|| [- ṛgveda 9.112.3]

"I am a singer, my father is a doctor and my mother pounds rice."

[philosoraptor]

Hmmm, well I guess Dhyandev has a point. Never mind all those Puranas and Upanishads and Mahabharata. TV serial pramana is king!