Law of Manu - Caste System

[philosoraptor]

Big wrong and for a very sad thing is you completely missed conflict and friendship of Vashishtha and Vishwamitra. You read only cursory but not the inner thing. When Brahma himself accepted Vishvamitra as a Brahmin, there you have to understand this, do sons of Vashitha know more than Brahma himself?

Pranams,

Obviously, you have never read the unabridged Ramayana, so let me fill you in on some historical details. Brahma's acceptance of Vishvamitra as a brahmin occurred *after* Trisanku-yagna. When the sons of Vishvamitra declined to attend Vishvamitra's yagna, it was prior to his brahmin status. Their comments were very clear in the text - they did not acknowledge Vishvamitra as a brahmin at that time despite his austerities and his willingness and ability to perform the yagna. Hence, your theory that one's quality and actions at any given time reflect his varna stands refuted.

Referring to rAmAyaNa, what made anyone to claim that Vishwamitra's Yajna was not accepted to Vashishtha, isn't it was Vashishtha himself who supported Vishwamitra's Yajna and made reluctant Dhasaratha to accept Vishwamitra's demand of sending Ram to protect his Yajna?

Again, you obviously do not know the text. This occurred chronologically *after* Brahma's pronouncement of Vishvamitra's brahminical status. Prior to that, while performing austerities, Vashishtha did not accept him as a brahmin despite his penance which was so austere that it threatened the devas.

Bhagwan Ram know laws of Dharma better or you, isn't Bhagwan Ram himself supported Vishwamitra's Yajna instead of questioning it?

Ram had nothing to do with the Trisanku-yagna. The yagna he protected occurred after Brahma's pronouncement that Vishvamitra was now a brahmin. Please consult the text and inform yourself of the facts.

Ultimately it is guna-karma-swabhava that will detemine the varna and not paap or punya. A paap or puna is done and doer will be punished or rewarded for this.

Evil deeds like murder cannot abolish action titles, nobody is 100% good but this is not the end. Duryodhan was a warrior and not a coward, he was not anti Vedas, so he cannot be described as Asura, he was not an illiterate servant to be described as Shudra. His respect to his parents, his true friendship qualities, and his support to Vedas with his action of warrior all this makes him a pure kShatriya.

Everyone should take note of the astonishingly inconsistent and highly backbending explanation being offered here. According to Param et. al., one's current qualities and actions determine one's varna. Yet, in spite of this theory, a person can commit evil acts like murder and still his varna does not change. How is this significantly different from the casteism you claim to criticize? Either varna is dynamic or it is not. Claiming that guna and karma can change it, and then claiming that murder or other criminal activity does not, is inconsistent.

Note also Param's view in which he equates "illiterate servant" with "shudra." There is no such description in the canonical texts, and as such, his view is both wrong and offensive.

Said already you did not have any question, Drona and Ashvatthama both were poor, but never worked as kShatriya so they were not kShatriyas. They participated in only Mahabharat war and that too they were employed by Duryodhana for being capable of warfare.

Your knowledge of Mahabharata appears to be based on what you watched on television serials and not on the original text, so let me fill you in on some details. First, Drona was engaged in warfare long before his employment by Duryodhana. He was first employed by Bhishma and the other Hastinapur elders to teach the fighting arts to the Pandavas and Kauravas when they were still young. Even at that time, Drona was already known as a master of arms. Later, as his guru-dakshina, he employed the Pandavas to fight with his friend Drupada over an insult and conquered the latter's kingdom, returning half of it later. This was all before the Mahabharata war. In fact, the Mahabharat does not document a history of Drona performing yagnas and other activities appropriate to a brahmin. Yet, he is always referred to as a brahmin despite his vengeful motivation and primarily military activities. So once again, this refutes your theory.

Read Vidur's great vaani, he was born ShUdra but he was a minister and worked as Brahmin, read the conversion of Sanjay (Karna's father and Dhritrashtra).

But neither Vidura nor Sanjaya were referred to as belonging to a varna other than that of their birth. What these examples show is that greatness is a function of one's good deeds and bhakti, and are often independent of one's birth. It does not follow however, that great deeds make you exempt from the varna of your birth.

Why not Sauptika Parva of mahabharata itself? Where it is clearly mentioned Ashvatthaama was banished.

... but not killed, despite committing murder which normally merits a death sentence. Why wasn't he executed? Answer: Because he was a brahmin as stated in the Bhagavata Purana.

You missed why Dronacharya was not spared? bhAgavata purANa talks about various deeds of Krishna for life and many quotes are added in later parts.

You are quite mistaken, and you are simply repeating a secular academic view with no understanding of the facts. The reality is that the Bhagavatam enjoys greater acceptance as pramana than the Mahabharata. In regards to the latter, Madhvacharya noted that it contained numerous interpolations. The Bhagavatam has far fewer changes.

If Krishna spared him then what was the real accounts when Krishna was a kShatriya?

Krishna did not spare or kill Drona. Drona was killed by Drishtadyumna, the son of Drupada, as an act of revenge for Drona's conquering Drupada's kingdom.

Also lookout what happened when Gandhari cursed Krishna, when Dhritrashtra tried to kill Bheema, what were the special accounts that made Pandavs and Krishna to spare them when they too were involved in the grief of Pandavas?

None of it is relevant to the fact that Ashvatthama was specifically spared on account of his being a brahmin.

Ashvatthaama and Kritvarma were Brahmins but Kritvarma was a kShatriya, all of them spared in one account, so what was Kritvarma's account?

Kritavarma was a kshatriya and he was killed later in Dwaraka. He also was not the one caught by Arjuna after the murder.

Its Islamic+Christian+Communist claims over Dharma Grantham to offend Dharmiks.
Action of BraHmaN - Support DhaRMa, promote the truth and expose the untruth.
Action of kShaTriYa - Fight for DhaRMa and attack the aDhaRMa.
Action of VaiShYa - Help DhaRMa and make aDhaRMa helpless.
Action of ShUdRa - Serve DhaRMa and no service to aDhaRMa.
but
Action of ASURa - aDhaRMa

Did Duryodhana fight for dharma? Was he ever regarded as anything other than kshatriya? I rest my case.

[PARAM]

Obviously, you have never read the unabridged Ramayana, so let me fill you in on some historical details. Brahma's acceptance of Vishvamitra as a brahmin occurred *after* Trisanku-yagna. When the sons of Vishvamitra declined to attend Vishvamitra's yagna, it was prior to his brahmin status. Their comments were very clear in the text - they did not acknowledge Vishvamitra as a brahmin at that time despite his austerities and his willingness and ability to perform the yagna. Hence, your theory that one's quality and actions at any given time reflect his varna stands refuted.

This is not the answer of my question

Nothing happened like *after* Trisanku-yagna, this Yajna was failed, can a failed yagna makes some result?

There is difference between Brahmin and Brahamrishi, and even if we accept, Vishvamitra become brahmin only *after* Trisanku-yagna then when Vashishtha himself

Again, you obviously do not know the text. This occurred chronologically *after* Brahma's pronouncement of Vishvamitra's brahminical status. Prior to that, while performing austerities, Vashishtha did not accept him as a brahmin despite his penance which was so austere that it threatened the devas.

Bhardwaja never did Trisanku-yagna, but he was accepted as a Brahmin even when he was a disciple of Valmiki, and even Valmiki never performed Trisanku-yagna like Vishvamitra still he enjoyed full respect from Vashishtha.

Ram had nothing to do with the Trisanku-yagna. The yagna he protected occurred after Brahma's pronouncement that Vishvamitra was now a brahmin. Please consult the text and inform yourself of the facts.

Ram's Birth was pre planned just as KaLkI is for future. Author of Ramayna, Maharshi Valmiki himself become a sage by just chanting mRa mRa (pronounce of rAm), so sorry he never did Trisanku-yagna.

Everyone should take note of the astonishingly inconsistent and highly backbending explanation being offered here. According to Param et. al., one's current qualities and actions determine one's varna. Yet, in spite of this theory, a person can commit evil acts like murder and still his varna does not change. How is this significantly different from the casteism you claim to criticize? Either varna is dynamic or it is not. Claiming that guna and karma can change it, and then claiming that murder or other criminal activity does not, is inconsistent.

Make more clearly, Hiranykshipu born in Kashyap linage but he is mentioned as Asura. His fault was he forced others to pray him and not to pray others, not even Brahma who was the source of his pawer by giving him the boon, still we find his Vishnu devotee clan was described as Brahmin, brahmin children of Asura. Even Matang rishi is mentioned in Ramayana who was born as Chandal but he is described as a Brahmin.

Note also Param's view in which he equates "illiterate servant" with "shudra." There is no such description in the canonical texts, and as such, his view is both wrong and offensive.

You think I will get ashamed by this allegation of yours?
What wrong and what offensive? You believe in birth based system so this is offensive to you because this is birth based right of having reservation. Only an "illiterate servant" is Shudra, an educated and learned is not a Shudra. First you want us to make believe that Varna is birth based, and then there you will go by giving evidence in Dharma Grantham where Shudras are described for service only. Best would be if you read Manu Samriti. Manu is clear that all Varnas are guna-karma-svabhava, and even a Brahmin born is not a Brahmin without similar guna-karma-svabhava. Manu was born as kShatriya, Vishvakarma was his maternal grandfather, but he become a Brahmin. (Read Manu Samriti, don’t burn it)

Your knowledge of Mahabharata appears to be based on what you watched on television serials and not on the original text, so let me fill you in on some details. First, Drona was engaged in warfare long before his employment by Duryodhana. He was first employed by Bhishma and the other Hastinapur elders to teach the fighting arts to the Pandavas and Kauravas when they were still young. Even at that time, Drona was already known as a master of arms. Later, as his guru-dakshina, he employed the Pandavas to fight with his friend Drupada over an insult and conquered the latter's kingdom, returning half of it later. This was all before the Mahabharata war. In fact, the Mahabharat does not document a history of Drona performing yagnas and other activities appropriate to a brahmin. Yet, he is always referred to as a brahmin despite his vengeful motivation and primarily military activities. So once again, this refutes your theory.

Or your knowledge? Was there any other war in which Drona participated before he was employed by Duryodhana?
Drona was employed by Bheeshama for teaching the princes, teaching is a Brahmin’s job, or do you have any proof when Bheesham taught Pandavs and Kauravs all this?
Performing Yagna is duty of everyone and not just for Brahmins. Dronacharya performed yajna with many other brahmins of Bhardawaja clan before accepting job of a teacher by Bheeshama, he performed Yagna even during the education of the Princes. You are missing Drona's life as a teacher and a person.
You forget Drona’s friend Drupada? In warfare Drupada was nothing for Drona, but did dronacharya fought him when he was already known as a master of arms? Or this is just story of serials and not on the original text?

But neither Vidura nor Sanjaya were referred to as belonging to a varna other than that of their birth. What these examples show is that greatness is a function of one's good deeds and bhakti, and are often independent of one's birth. It does not follow however, that great deeds make you exempt from the varna of your birth.

It shows when supporters of birth based system claim that Shudras were servent without right in ancient times by birth, can you claim all those Shudras in ancient times were without good deeds and bhakti?

... but not killed, despite committing murder which normally merits a death sentence. Why wasn't he executed? Answer: Because he was a brahmin as stated in the Bhagavata Purana.

Why Drona was not spared, what is the answer in the Bhagavata Purana?

You are quite mistaken, and you are simply repeating a secular academic view with no understanding of the facts. The reality is that the Bhagavatam enjoys greater acceptance as pramana than the Mahabharata. In regards to the latter, Madhvacharya noted that it contained numerous interpolations. The Bhagavatam has far fewer changes.

It was not Madhvacharya, his disciples claimed this after his death, I can mention better names who will not accept Bhagavatam over Mahabharata.

Krishna did not spare or kill Drona. Drona was killed by Drishtadyumna, the son of Drupada, as an act of revenge for Drona's conquering Drupada's kingdom.

Who advised Pandavs to kill Ashvatthama elephant and shout Ashvatthama is killed? Drona was suspicious and he asked only Yudhishtira, but who did the ShanKhNaD just when Yudhishthira was going to mention it was elephant and not Drona’s son?

None of it is relevant to the fact that Ashvatthama was specifically spared on account of his being a brahmin.

Krishna made Prikshit alive again, he was able to alive anyone who was dead, even Ashvatthama or even Dronacharya, but he did not made anyone alive and not allowed anyone to kill Ashvatthama, this is much important and wide known fact.

Kritavarma was a kshatriya and he was killed later in Dwaraka. He also was not the one caught by Arjuna after the murder.

He was caught by Krishna, you are claiming Ashvatthama was specifically spared on account of his being a brahmin but this too by Krishna himself, so what was the specific reason to spare Kritavarma when no Pandav killed him?

Did Duryodhana fight for dharma? Was he ever regarded as anything other than kshatriya? I rest my case.

Duryodhana fought for selfish goal and not to abolish DhaRMa, while Krishna was with DhaRMa only and he supported Pandavs because they were selfless and always pro DhaRMa. Respect parents, unconditional support to whoever is faithful to him, respect true friendship etc his qualities brought him Narayani Sena from Krishna. Or make a claim like you are doing -A person can commit evil acts like murder and still get military support from Krishna?

[philosoraptor]

Param, I'm sure it's probably your dizzying intellect, but I can't seem to read your replies without getting an Excedrin-sized headache. If anyone else can distill what he wrote and explain how it actually is a response to anything I wrote, I would be very happy to see the commentary.

thanks,

PR

[PARAM]

Param, I'm sure it's probably your dizzying intellect, but I can't seem to read your replies without getting an Excedrin-sized headache.
If anyone else can distill what he wrote and explain how it actually is a response to anything I wrote, I would be very happy to see the commentary.

thanks,

You make big claims first, and when you don't have answer then this is how you want to run away.


You forget this thread is made for Manu's Law on caste? How can you know without understanding Manusamriti? You don't have a single example from Law of Manu and all your examples are already answered.

[Vasa]

Namaste.

Both sides bring up good points. My humble question is, is this arguing beneficial to one's sadhana?

[Seeker]

Namaste.

Both sides bring up good points. My humble question is, is this arguing beneficial to one's sadhana?

It is not - any deeply involved debate interferes with meditation and arouses unnecessary passion.

[philosoraptor]

Pranams,

Rest assured, I have no passions aroused as a result of this discussion. It's a good point though that I haven't brought up Manu. I could certainly do this if I thought it mattered, that is to say, if I felt I was dealing with someone who was prepared to adjust his conclusions based on evidence. Unfortunately, I brought up numerous other examples from mainstream scriptures for which I have received tangential explanations at best. Now it seems that because I don't want to waste time responding to these sorts of oblique replies, I am "running away" from the discussion. So be it. Let those who want to claim "victory" do so.

regards,

[ShivaFan]

Namaste IcySFX,

Let me ask you an honest question.

Long, long ago Lord Krishna spoke on a great battlefield, and yes He stated a reference to varna in two verses, at which time He stated clearly In the word Chatur(varNyam) FOUR Orders and the word BIRTH was not use, but that the orders are differentiated accordance with the qualities arising from their nature.

But by the time of Manu, not only is there now a FIFTH "caste", caste which is a stupid translation rendered into English by stupid people who also borrowed from just as stupid renderings from the Portuguese, we find not only "untouchables" but the original FOUR are now FIFTY-FOUR! Suddenly Krishna forgot to say it is actually 54, and no longer is it an order defining the nature of work but a category of a birth, and that scripture which teaches you are not this body now takes back-stage to your body now defines you because of birth, your birth is a jail cell that will define what you are no matter what your soul comes to realize within this life and time is now a slave that has to wait until this thing called the body is dead.

By the time of the Kaka Kalalkar the number of castes goes from Krishna's FOUR orders based on Gunas and ones qualities of nature to 54 to over THREE-THOUSAND birth based castes.

Next thing we know, it goes from over 3,000 castes to the modern 6,000 not including various obscure subcastes fussing and feuding about who is better by birth than the next, despicable disgrace against the very human soul and even crimes against humanity, and that karma itself is a slave to your body, to flesh of birth, that it is not possible for a soul to have true realization to take your quality of nature from one artificial designation to the next higher nature within one single hour within the same life you have become realized, but that even that realization is a slave to your body and now must wait until your next lump of flesh which is one of the over 6,000 birth-castes?

So actually you are your body according to such no matter how they coddle it with aspirations of selective Sanskrit and plethora of cut and paste later works or even Veda itself.

For you, there is no longer instant karma, whether you should become accountable for your evil and ignorant deeds and mind, nor even any grace or blessing which all must wait and be subservient to the body and your birth.

But for some other, because they are deemed some higher caste, of which who can even prove what caste is another if it is based on birth and not character or nature simply because of the overwhelming chattel of fakery or bribes of someone's past relative to buy a caste status, to murder as a means of caste promotion, to kill as many of the others they can one caste notch above them among the 6000 castes so that now their birth caste is one notch higher thanks to the demise of another people, for now some of the other higher caste can do anything, rape the female child of the Shudra and for this there is no change in their caste for they are still great in this life and their caste because it is birth that is final, and not how bright is the light of that persons soul.

Everything that comes to you, before you, when it is wronged against you, when evil hurts you or your family or your children, or your love, and so you suffer, is it all due to your own karma? That God, or self-realization does not have a 1000 quivers and a thousand arrows ready by Ram, but only one arrow called karma?

That it cannot be that pure evil alone comes knocking because other fools attached to the body have empowered such evil, and you still stand innocent from its lies, innocent of karma because it is no fault of your own?

Today we find that in the United States of America, a man, with a mind of a monster and sick in the soul, evil walking, went into a movie theatre with his hair dyed red and calling himself the Joker, and starts randomly shooting and murdering everyone in the cinema, more than a dozen killed, more that sixty injured, a six year old girl shot dead in the face right in front of her mother...

Do you believe that for all those killed, that it was their own reward, their own karma?
The six year old, she "had it coming"? It's her karma, right?

There are many arrows, not only one called karma.

Do not let your love, your next child, your life become a jail cell of entrapment to the caste-by-birth extremists. And certainly not your path to God, to Shiva, to your path you are taking, a path larger than your body, and which can be much faster than a single life. A body does not dictate what you are, or can be, which can be 1 million years from now or the very next second of your life.

Do not let four become six-thousand.

And to the "Birthers" wing of the caste-centric extremists attached to the body who want someone else stand off by the side of the road while they pass by, around you are many souls. This soul lives in the United States of America. Yes, and tomorrow another place? But for now, in this place and it may surprise them, but there are more Hindus living here than they may imagine. But whether it be right or wrong, in the United States if you actually tried to enforce such birth based discrimination by whatever means you would try, such crime against humanity would in fact be considered a crime against the law. You can live in your mind the law of Manu all you want, but if YOUR INTERPRETATION of caste were to even be attempted you will find that actually your discrimination is illegal, against the law, and attempting to enforce any such thing by force of hand or any other cudgel on their children will put you in a prison cell and then you can say that is your karma. Not that I would wish so. I am just telling you the truth. And there would still be temples of Lord Shiva and Lord Ram, and Lord Krishna, and Devi, and many Authorized Gurus still standing in the US the very next day.

It's just that ...
There won't be 6000 of whatever those designations are.

Om Namah Sivaya

[IcyCosmic]

Dear ShivaFan, I've been reading all through this thread and your reply (thanks) and I'm going to be completely honest. I have no idea whats going on. I still do not understand whether the caste system was meant to be implemented and if it necessary at all. (In Kal Yuga)
I mean I pay no mind to it. If someone sees, caste, race, religion, creed, origin, ethnicity, whatever. I just see human. I just see children of god. Thats about it. Obviously [respectively] philo. and Param have extensive knowledge on the matter but I can't really break down much of the information because the only scripture I've read is the Gita and I'm reading (rigveda) currently.
I think I should also start reading the Law of Manu and other such related texts both parties have mentioned.

[philosoraptor]

Pranams Icy,

I have yet to read anything, anywhere, that suggests that varNAshrama was not meant to be followed in Kali-Yuga. I have, on the other hand, read many references to the degradation of varNAshrama in Kali-Yuga. Obviously, if degradation of varNAshrama is seen as a bad thing, then its preservation is a good thing.

Seeing all as children of God is a good, and very correct, vision. But one should also include in that category all animals, plants, microorganisms, and in short, any living entity regardless of the body in which it is found. The different bodies in which the jIvas are found are not equal, and their differences are the result of different guNas and karmas from previous lives. Similarly, we can see it as obvious that the bodies of different human beings are not all equal. Some have more intelligence, others have more beauty, others have more strength, etc. Some are born into wealthy families and others are born into poverty. How to account for these differences? Quite simply, they are due to different guNa and karma from previous lives. If we can accept this, then we're already at the point of accepting birth-based varNAshrama. If we accept that guNa and karma from previous lives determines one's present birth, then the only argument left is whether one is considered to belong to the varNa of his birth (i.e. the varNa of his/her parents) by convention, or if birth-varNa has nothing to do with one's ultimate varNa in that very lifetime.

My advice to you at this time is, don't get caught up so much in this technical discussion. First thing is, get familiar with the general principles. I recommend reading Bhagavad-giitaa first, then Bhaagavata Puraana, then Vishnu Puraana, then go back to Bhagavad-giitaa, then Raamaayanam, and then perhaps Mahaabhaarata in its entirety. Right now at this stage in your spiritual life, it's important to understand and follow basic principles (i.e. no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex, obey/respect elders, maintain basic cleanliness). As you get more understand of why we do these things, you can slowly incorporate other regulations as you become aware of them (and there are many).

If you know for a fact that you are born into a specific varNa, then it's a good idea to try to start doing the duties that are yours by birthright. Failing to perform one's varNAshrama-duties brings sinful reactions. Consider the following examples:

1) A man, born brahmin, has a modern, Western education. He parties in college, drinks beer, has various girlfriends, eats meat, etc all to assimilate with his friends. He has some basic knowledge of Hinduism and knows he is a brahmin by birth. But, he argues, "Being a brahmin is a very great position. It's not determined by birth. Therefore, don't tell me I have to follow all those duties. Because I'm clearly not a brahmin in my conduct. Therefore, I'll go on with my lifestyle and there is no need for me to change it."

2) A second man, also born a brahmin, learns about Hinduism primarily from books. His parents have some knowledge but they emigrated to the West to escape poverty in India. Their son has now grown to a point where he wants to learn his heritage, and in so doing, he realizes that there are fundamental incompatibilities between his brahmin duties and his lifestyle as an IT consultant. He can declare himself unfit to be a brahmin because brahminism is based on conduct, and thus have no motivation to carry out his brahminical duties. Or, he can continue his profession and at the same time take up his brahmin duties like sandhya-vandanam, deity-worship, etc, recognizing that these are means to purification, are his duty based on birth, and will only help him if he does them. More to the point, as he spends more time reading scripture, doing puja, etc, he finds he has less time to watch TV and engage in other materialistic activities.

Which do you think is more conducive to one's spiritual growth? Which person do you think will be a better ambassador of Hinduism to the Western world?