Varying levels of reality

[wundermonk]

Greetings folks,

Non-existence has been analyzed in quite a bit of detail by various Hindu schools of thought. In this thread, I intend to provide some of my thoughts and also learn from others as we go along.

Let me provide a few instances of non-existence and let us grade them in the increasing order of reality along with reasons why.

(1)A square circle, a barren woman's son, etc.
(2)A hare's horn, pink unicorn (PU), flying sphaghetti monster (FSM)
(3)A dream that one wakes up from
(4)A pot before it is produced when it is as clay, ice when it is in the form of water

In your list, also indicate where you would place category (5)God and why.

A note on (2):

A hare's horn, PU, FSM

If these are held to be non-existent, not only should it be explained in what precise sense they are non-existent, but it should also be explained in what sense the non-existence of PU is different from the non-existence of FSM.

[smaranam]

Namaste Wundermonk,

To me only the square circle does not exist.

Everything else on your list can.

(Also, the pot potentially exists in the clay and in its pre-made design.
The ice potentially exists in water.)

Shri KRshNa Govinda Hare MurAre
He NAth NArAyaNa VAsudeva~

[wundermonk]

Hi Smaranam,

I tend to agree with you, except, I would tend to classify (1) and (2) at equal levels of unreality.

Why?

How can a hare have a horn? By definition, a hare does NOT have a horn. If one were, however, to come across a species of animal that looks like a hare but has horns, would we not classify it as a separate species/class? Otherwise, now we end up having unnecessarily more complex words - horned hare, unhorned hare!

[McKitty]

Vanakkam,


Hare's horn: if I understand well, a hare is a male rabbit right ? Legends talk about horned rabbits but in fact, it's "true". Due to a specific race of papilloma virus, wild rabbits develops horns.
Those horns are tumors made of keratina, very nearly the same of what horns are made of.

Here's a link to know more : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shope_papilloma_virus

If a mutation of a particular virus like papilloma virus can affect a lion, then why a lion could not grow horns ? A variation of this virus is also responsible for the "tree people".

I guess everything can be possible, in good or in bad

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

many seemingly unbelievable things can be arranged in such a way that would defy logic. so never say never.
Hiranyakashipu found that out the hard way.

i guess i can't give you a square circle but we certainly have a square bubble. similarly it might be possible to arrange squares in such a way that it forms a circle.

Jai Shree Krishna

[realdemigod]

Good topic wundermonk..but I think you need to define what do you mean by reality here.

No. 4 is obvious from physical reality but if you believe dreams as as real as our everyday reality in fact more real..then No. 2 and 1 both are possible in dreams. Like you might know some woman who can't be pregnant and never had child.. and still dream about her having a child .. certainly possible provided your mind wants to know that for some reason. And I'm not providing justification for No. 2 as these are normal in dreams.

Only thing I'm not sure is square circle ..how will it pan out in dreams? Even with superposition I don't know how. May be people with highly developed right brains or liberated souls can comprehend such image I guess.

No. 5 will be hard to place among these if I go with my above definition of reality - our everyday reality as none haven't seen nor felt physically.

[wundermonk]

i guess i can't give you a square circle but we certainly have a square bubble. similarly it might be possible to arrange squares in such a way that it forms a circle.

The idea is to figure out if a term or a combination of terms is self-refuting.

Square: A convex quadrilateral with equal sides and angle between adjacent sides 90 degrees.

Circle: The set of points equidistant from a given point.

From this, it should readily be clear that a square circle cannot be.

The emphasized (mine) is not what usually people mean by square circle.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Perhaps saying varying levels of people's view of reality may be appropos. Reality does not change.

I look at a home through the fog... the home at first looks like a castle, then a cottage, then a cavern. Yet the house never changed its stucture. It was the fog that contributed to the mis-conception of what stands.
Like that, it is our ignorance that changes the view of Reality and what one thinks it is.

praṇām

[wundermonk]

Good topic wundermonk..but I think you need to define what do you mean by reality here.

The external world as object. The apprehending mind/brain/consciousness as subject. All of them are part of reality. Reality is what exists. Reality can be known and named. But not everything that can be named is real. I also think that anything imaginary/unreal cannot be known although it can be named (eg. square circle).

No. 4 is obvious from physical reality but if you believe dreams as as real as our everyday reality in fact more real..then No. 2 and 1 both are possible in dreams.

What we DO encounter in dreams are but real objects that are sometimes misqualified. That is, we see a barren woman in reality (waking reality) and we see a son in reality. Both of these are REAL entities. But it is an error to attribute a son to a barren woman. Thus, both components of "a barren woman's son" are real yet the error consists in attributing one to the other.

[realdemigod]

The external world as object. The apprehending mind/brain/consciousness as subject. All of them are part of reality. Reality is what exists. Reality can be known and named. But not everything that can be named is real. I also think that anything imaginary/unreal cannot be known although it can be named (eg. square circle).



What we DO encounter in dreams are but real objects that are sometimes misqualified. That is, we see a barren woman in reality (waking reality) and we see a son in reality. Both of these are REAL entities. But it is an error to attribute a son to a barren woman. Thus, both components of "a barren woman's son" are real yet the error consists in attributing one to the other.

It's because it defies logic and experience but the same logic can't be used across other entities even in dreams. Dreams defy logic even space time construct. Just because it wasn't there and no one saw doesn't qualify as unreal.