Hypothetical scenario for those who believe Varna is by birth

[wundermonk]

1) At the end of every four yugas, there is a partial devastation in which the earth is repopulated after the death of all sinful beings by Kalki Avatar.

Repopulated with which selves? The self is what transmigrates.

2) The prajapatis are not destroyed in the above devastation and our scriptures indicate that it is from them from whom human beings are born. Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that they would repopulate the earth with brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras.

Here again, let us take the Purusha Suktam which you are referring to. See my question to Satay. In the scenario I outlined, there are only "Mlechha" selves. What happens to these selves during the pralaya and during the next round of srishti?

[philosoraptor]

Param, once again you have ascribed words to me in quotations which I never said.

I would appreciate it if you maintained at least a modicum of intellectual honesty.

thanks,

[philosoraptor]

Repopulated with which selves? The self is what transmigrates.

Here again, let us take the Purusha Suktam which you are referring to. See my question to Satay. In the scenario I outlined, there are only "Mlechha" selves. What happens to these selves during the pralaya and during the next round of srishti?

Pranams WM,

The self is not brahmin, kshatriya, vaisha, or shudra, but merely takes a position in one of these varnas based on its previous guna and karma. Once the bodies of these jIvas is destroyed, they go on to take another body based on guna and karma. That guna and karma need not be based on the life immediately previous - it could also be from guna/karma from remote lifetimes. For example, one could get a current birth as a mleccha due to some offense he created in a previous lifetime, but then later get a birth as a dvija due to unrewarded good karmas the he has also got. Remember also that death at the hands of Lord Vishnu destroys many of one's previous karmas - this is what happened to demons like Putana, Kamsa, Sishupala, etc.

Also, there are is an unending supply of jIvas who are falling from deva-loka to be reborn as humans, as well as jIvas who are coming up from Naraka and also from animal/plant life to become humans. So, there is nothing all difficult to believe that true brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras could be repopulated on this earth through the actions of the prajapatis.

regards,

[satay]

namaste WM,
Like I said before, you cannot just look at one aspect like varnasram from Gita without looking at karma and reincarnation, you have to look at reincarnation and karma along with it. They are all inter-related topics. Until you examine all of these interdependent things together. this varna thing will confuse you.

Instead of trying to clear your doubts on the Internet on this topic, may I suggest you talk to a real person who understands Gita?

[wundermonk]

The self is not brahmin, kshatriya, vaisha, or shudra, but merely takes a position in one of these varnas based on its previous guna and karma.

Sure. In the infinite past lifetime of the self, it has assumed different adventitious attributes, one of which is its varna. Stating that one's varna is fixed for a lifetime is meaningless - especially when the same self reincarnates. Now, what is the classification of humans that you propose. Is it the following:

Brahmin
Vaishya
Kshatriya
Shudra
Mlechha

Is the above collectively exhaustive? If yes, I would like you to provide the causal factors leading to Mlechhas. Specifically, I am looking for the relationship between the three gunas that would make a self (that is beyond the gunas) take birth in a "Mlechha" family.

For example, one could get a current birth as a mleccha due to some offense he created in a previous lifetime,

Forgive me, but I need to ask you a question. What is your race/citizenship? What is your current country of residence? Do you seriously believe that all non-Indian Hindus take birth in the families they do precisely because they have done offenses in a previous lifetime?

Also, there are is an unending supply of jIvas who are falling from deva-loka to be reborn as humans, as well as jIvas who are coming up from Naraka and also from animal/plant life to become humans. So, there is nothing all difficult to believe that true brahmins, kshatriyas, vaisyas, and shudras could be repopulated on this earth through the actions of the prajapatis.regards,

The action of Prajapati is at the beginning of a cycle of Srishti.

So, basically, in the scenario I outlined, until Pralaya and the next Srishti, there cannot be a "born" B/K/S/V. There can only be Mlechhas born again and again. Yes?

[wundermonk]

namaste WM,
Like I said before, you cannot just look at one aspect like varnasram from Gita without looking at karma and reincarnation, you have to look at reincarnation and karma along with it. They are all inter-related topics. Until you examine all of these interdependent things together. this varna thing will confuse you.

Instead of trying to clear your doubts on the Internet on this topic, may I suggest you talk to a real person who understands Gita?

I am extremely disappointed with your response.

[PARAM]

ahem...a reminder, there is something called, God?

Who was Parshuram, Bhagwan Parshuram not God, and he surrounded only to Ram, his own alter ego. Who was Ram?

So, now I am also posting stuff from muslim sites?

Muslims+Christians+Communists
I asked you to clarify but you have this to reply.

Param, once again you have ascribed words to me in quotations which I never said.

I would appreciate it if you maintained at least a modicum of intellectual honesty.

thanks,

No I put my answers with your quote, everyone who can read understand this .

Remember also that death at the hands of Lord Vishnu destroys many of one's previous karmas - this is what happened to demons like Putana, Kamsa, Sishupala, etc.

You claimed that Krishna let Ashwatthama go for being Brahmin by birth, do you believe Krishna was justified? Or this was something Vishnu did not destroyed his previous karmas?


Do you believe in Krishna? Do you respect who are Brahmins by birth only?




I will never care if I am becoming a laughing stock by replying this way.
People laugh at me when I chant Jay Shee Ram, and when I tell them laugh at Allah, their laugh then stops.

[satay]

Seriously. Please, this topic is consuming you.

Why worry so much about varna? If you don't believe in it anyway, what does it matter?

I for one will not give up my varna or caste or jati no matter how loud mullahs, christians or hindus like you shout. If anti varna people don't like it, that's not my problem.

I am extremely disappointed with your response.

[satay]

namaste Param,

Muslims+Christians+Communists
I asked you to clarify but you have this to reply.

Now I am cummunist?

Please make up your mind as to what insult are you going to use for me.

[PARAM]

Seriously. Please, this topic is consuming you.

Why worry so much about varna? If you don't believe in it anyway, what does it matter?

I for one will not give up my varna or caste or jati no matter how loud mullahs, christians or hindus like you shout. If anti varna people don't like it, that's not my problem

I believe in the Varna, it is made by ॐ
I know the existence of caste, but it is not Varna.


Now do you also believe that animals were Slaughtered during Vedic Yagyas?

namaste Param,

Now I am cummunist?

Please make up your mind as to what insult are you going to use for me.

You blamed Parshuram for annihilating the world 21 times, did't you? To take this as insult to you, but what is insult to Parshuram?

May we never speak anything which is against dignity of the deities. (Samaveda - 610)

Satay you forget there are two topics going on - Slaughter of animals and Birth or Deeds as Varna. Why didn't you took it seriously? You are the Admin here and this is your duty.